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A/G Radar Worries and ED work overload.


Cintra

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Hornet pilots said they never used it for any form of targeting apart from terrain avoidence and finding weather cells

 

 

During COIN campaigns in desert/dry atmosphere areas with Hi-Hi-Hi Mission profiles and no opposition...

 

 

One suspects that in a conflict againsta peer level adversary, undertaking STRIKE (not CAS/BAI) Missions in bad weather in a degraded GPS environment...might prove somewhat different!

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Let alone Hornet pilots said they never used it for any form of targeting apart from terrain avoidence and finding weather cells.

 

Like all of them??? you've spoken to every Hornet pilot ever, wow...that's some undertaking!;)

 

Regardless of how many pilots you've actually heard from, this is a product, one of the advertised features of said product is a ground radar, so it needs to be eventually delivered as advertised.

 

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Like all of them??? you've spoken to every Hornet pilot ever, wow...that's some undertaking!;)

 

Regardless of how many pilots you've actually heard from, this is a product, one of the advertised features of said product is a ground radar, so it needs to be eventually delivered as advertised.

 

I’ve bitten my tongue for a while, but Airhunter is onto something....

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To be honest, Ground Radar is so unimportant..... Don't know what most player think will happen when it comes out, but ground radar is not something magical, it is pretty bad at what it is supposed to do. Even if you find something, it will just be used to slew other sensors to a general area where they can use something more efficient to work with.

 

There are so many other more important features and small details for the Hornet, which will benefit the players tons more than a ground radar. Full HOTAS, fixed flight dynamics (although most people can't tell a fly from an eagle in terms of flight model and are happy, even with some of the abysmal work of some 3rd parties), flares, coordinates, small sub systems and the MOST important feature, arguably, the data card/mission cartridge or what ever you want to call it.

 

Lets you setup everything for your flight before you step into the aircraft, will make MP a lot more smother of an experience and easier on mission developers.

 

I feel like AG might become a priority, because of a lot of vocal people wanting it, without really knowing what to expect and when it finally comes out.... it will no where as useful as they thought and they will just bark back at ED.... That is unless it gets intentionally buffed, beyond what it realistically is.

 

This again. I am fully aware of what it is and what it does. Are you?

 

Why do you think I need to slew another sensor if I've achieved FTT on a structure or vehicle? DBS3 resolution is quite good. Do you know of a better way to resolve large areas through a cloud deck, or moving targets on the ground? If you're bombing, wouldn't it be nice to leave the TPOD at home? Tell me, which of those things do you think we don't understand?

 

And the flight model. This keeps coming up. Tell me, what EXACTLY would you like changed in the flight model, and which 3rd party dev is responsible for us not knowing better? Most 3rd party aircraft are not FBW and are nothing like the Hornet. I'm not saying it's 100% accurate, but no one who complains about it ever goes on to say what should change. Do you think the Mirage or JF17, both of which are harder to handle than the Hornet, is spoiling us? The Viggen? The Harrier?

 

Air quake is what 5% of the customer base does. The rest of us got into DCS for the opposite of that, for fully modeled authentic systems that aren't "buffed" "nerfed" "balanced" or pay any attention to their usefulness when on a 100 person server with immovable ground units. They are in the sim because they are in the real jet.

 

TL:DR; ground radar isn't unimportant, it's unimportant to YOU. There's plenty of us who find all the MP aides useless and wonder why it would ever take priority over fidelity of systems and airframe

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Let alone Hornet pilots said they never used it for any form of targeting apart from terrain avoidence and finding weather cells.

 

My guess is it can get useful for that and detecting moving targets and, of course, ships.

 

What people might expect and won't get is a top down overview of the area in front of them with every ground unit highlighted and targetable without the need of a TGP.

 

As for importance, by top points are flare count, being able to set up CMS on the ground, data cartridge, offset and mark points, full autopilot, ability to set CBU HOB via kneeboard and having that negative ground effect (what a turn rate though!) deservedly kicked in it's posterior finally! I do even care for small things like the missing beer cans... after that I'd rather like to see all the introduced, but incomplete things (literally everything) completed before getting new toys...

 

What's the "full HOTAS" thing everyone seems to be talking about lately BTW?

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What's the "full HOTAS" thing everyone seems to be talking about lately BTW?

 

There was a write-up somewhere(reddit I think) that showed the Hornet hotas can do more than it presently does in dcs like interaction with the ddi.

I am not aware ED has even acknowledged this hotas functions and will be implementing them.

It would be great to have those hotas functionality howbeit because it makes lot of sense considering what "hotas" really means.


Edited by Eaglewings

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If you're bombing, wouldn't it be nice to leave the TPOD at home? Tell me, which of those things do you think we don't understand?

 

No, It wouldn't - because you can't rely on that radar alone. Do you think Rhino drivers carry it around just to take cool videos and show them in their cruise video?

Yeah, sure - you might want it in the game as soon as possible, but the people here try to tell you that it isn't the magic bullet everyone thinks it is.

 

Tell me, what EXACTLY would you like changed in the flight model

 

Reversed ground effect, stores drag, and PA mode for the ATC.


Edited by BarTzi
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The real question is how the ground radar will be simulated, because even if in reality is not used much, maybe in the game we will be able to use it more efficiently, when all the functions will be available, specially EXT3.

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(although most people can't tell a fly from an eagle in terms of flight model and are happy, even with some of the abysmal work of some 3rd parties),

 

Problem is that ED can't make realistic flight modeling to F/A-18C or F-16C etc. They have in the agreement that they will nerf the aircraft real capabilities somewhat for security reasons.

 

So, there is that....

 

And NATOPS and all pilot books are not exactly accurate either, for counter intelligence reasons. So how would people get to know what to expect?

 

We after all sit in a room, on nice chair, with a PC HOTAS and both has zero feedback or effect to flying. Even in VR we are all fully detached from real flying. So there shouldn't be high expectations for the realism after all to begin with.

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The real question is how the ground radar will be simulated, because even if in reality is not used much, maybe in the game we will be able to use it more efficiently, when all the functions will be available, specially EXT3.

 

In game we can use it far better if it is like current FLIR etc. As you will get all units popping up on radar screen like nothing, just like current radar implementation even in Hornet.

 

Many here doesn't want reality, as they would have challenge to find something to go BOOM.

 

DCS is currently "one man army" and that is why there is so many YouTube channels about air quake and fictional missions that are completely unrealistic and done only to boost the "inner child" fantasies of beign fighter pilot.

There is nothing wrong in it to have such mind, but thinking that it is even remotely realistic that one pilot can do what so many is flying like... That is just...

 

But that is great thing in DCS, we can simulate fantasies where one can go and bomb half a fleet alone if so wanted.... Regardless that there would be 30+ fighters and X count of long range SAM defending it and patrolling hundreds of nautical miles No-Fly Zone around it.

 

But it is great thing that inner child can make fantasies come true....

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Problem is that ED can't make realistic flight modeling to F/A-18C or F-16C etc. They have in the agreement that they will nerf the aircraft real capabilities somewhat for security reasons.

 

 

:lol:

Yeah sure. A computer game is a security threat. This is one of my favorites when it comes to make believe, by the way. Local urban legend.

 

I've heard AG radar is coming sometime this year. For now I just fly jets which have AG radar already available, if I fancy playing with it.

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The real question is how the ground radar will be simulated, because even if in reality is not used much, maybe in the game we will be able to use it more efficiently, when all the functions will be available, specially EXT3.

 

I think this is the case. I keep hearing how it's not used that much currently, but the missions they fly aren't like the missions that I find myself at least flying. The missions I find myself in are more akin to A-10 Desert Storm kill boxes where I'm looking for targets with my pod or my eyes in a general area. We don't have the planning and detail briefings that the real life guys do and I believe we would benefit greatly from an AG radar.

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Having read through all these pages....seeing people’s thoughts here on the AG radar is very interesting.

 

I'd find it more interesting to hear yours;) j/k

Hey, I put this thing to use in the "other" (Rhino) sim. At night, I locked the end of the runway in EXP3 and shot a nice approach, wasn't too hard.

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No, It wouldn't - because you can't rely on that radar alone. Do you think Rhino drivers carry it around just to take cool videos and show them in their cruise video?

Yeah, sure - you might want it in the game as soon as possible, but the people here try to tell you that it isn't the magic bullet everyone thinks it is.

 

 

 

Reversed ground effect, stores drag, and PA mode for the ATC.

 

Point out where I (or anyone) said it's a "magic bullet"? This is a paper tiger. No one needs to try to tell me it's not a magic bullet because I never said or thought that it was. My other car is a Viggen.

 

Also, forgot to check the counter on your appeal to authority.

 

 

Here it is:

 

Do you think the Navy puts in the AG radar just for pretty pictures?

Or:

Do you think they bothered to put in EXP3 and complicated DBS modes just for fun?

Or:

Do you think Rhino drivers waste time training with their radars just to play games?

 

The problem with your logic is that it assumes that because one sensor is useful, others aren't.

 

Why are they putting AESA radars with advanced SAR in those same Rhinos if all they need is is the TPOD?

 

Ag radar is useful. It's another tool. It's not the be all end all, it's just another tool, just like your TPOD is just a tool. Just like your DTC and multiplayer QOL items are just tools. No one is arguing any of them should exist in isolation.

 

As for you can't rely on it alone, you have no evidence for that. In certain circumstances you can. FTT yields an accurate bombing solution. Designating with a TPOD is redundant for some targets and impossible in certain weather conditions.

 

Finally, for the fm, do the stores not drag enough? What is reverse ground effect? What is PA mode for ATC and what does that have to do with the flight model?

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Point out where I (or anyone) said it's a "magic bullet"? This is a paper tiger. No one needs to try to tell me it's not a magic bullet because I never said or thought that it was. My other car is a Viggen.

 

Also, forgot to check the counter on your appeal to authority.

 

 

Here it is:

 

Do you think the Navy puts in the AG radar just for pretty pictures?

Or:

Do you think they bothered to put in EXP3 and complicated DBS modes just for fun?

Or:

Do you think Rhino drivers waste time training with their radars just to play games?

 

The problem with your logic is that it assumes that because one sensor is useful, others aren't.

 

Why are they putting AESA radars with advanced SAR in those same Rhinos if all they need is is the TPOD?

 

Ag radar is useful. It's another tool. It's not the be all end all, it's just another tool, just like your TPOD is just a tool. Just like your DTC and multiplayer QOL items are just tools. No one is arguing any of them should exist in isolation.

 

As for you can't rely on it alone, you have no evidence for that. In certain circumstances you can. FTT yields an accurate bombing solution. Designating with a TPOD is redundant for some targets and impossible in certain weather conditions.

 

Finally, for the fm, do the stores not drag enough? What is reverse ground effect? What is PA mode for ATC and what does that have to do with the flight model?

 

 

I can't and won't get into any details of any tactical systems or tactics. Respectfully, however, I can tell you that your logic is mistaken. Think about when the Navy put these features in. Also, comparing what modern A/G modes can do compared to old mech-scanned is far beyond apples to oranges.

 

 

People here just seem way more excited than they should be about this. Won't say any more.

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Finally, for the fm, do the stores not drag enough? What is reverse ground effect? What is PA mode for ATC and what does that have to do with the flight model?

 

I didn't say all they need is the TPOD - I said they don't go without it.

 

I don't think arguing about the A/G radar has any value. I based my opinion on what real hornet drivers said here and on other platforms. I respect your views and hope to see that mode of operation in the game in the near future.

 

Yes, there are issues with the way the drag is calculated which should be addressed.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=226009

 

For the ground effect- it's known that there are a few issues with it causing the plane to be sucked to the ground when flying really low. That's the opposite of what happens in real life.

 

ATC has two modes. PA handles flight with gears and flaps down. You can read more about it in NATOPS. That's the last bit of anything related to how the plane actually flies that was not implemented fully.

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I can't and won't get into any details of any tactical systems or tactics. Respectfully, however, I can tell you that your logic is mistaken. Think about when the Navy put these features in. Also, comparing what modern A/G modes can do compared to old mech-scanned is far beyond apples to oranges.

 

 

People here just seem way more excited than they should be about this. Won't say any more.

 

Respectfully, I think you're wrong.

 

1. Wanting AG radar != thinking it's a panacea

2. You have no idea why people are excited about this and can't possibly know how excited they should be

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I didn't say all they need is the TPOD - I said they don't go without it.

 

I don't think arguing about the A/G radar has any value. I based my opinion on what real hornet drivers said here and on other platforms. I respect your views and hope to see that mode of operation in the game in the near future.

 

Yes, there are issues with the way the drag is calculated which should be addressed.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=226009

 

For the ground effect- it's known that there are a few issues with it causing the plane to be sucked to the ground when flying really low. That's the opposite of what happens in real life.

 

ATC has two modes. PA handles flight with gears and flaps down. You can read more about it in NATOPS. That's the last bit of anything related to how the plane actually flies that was not implemented fully.

 

Agree on all of this and thanks for the FM info, I genuinely didn't know what people were talking about with that, and now I do.:thumbup:

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I for one am more excited for the AZ/EL page to be implemented rather than the AG radar...though it will be very fun to play around with. I already find the Hornet to be pretty lethal for AG in its current state.


Edited by wilbur81

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:lol:

Yeah sure. A computer game is a security threat. This is one of my favorites when it comes to make believe, by the way. Local urban legend.

 

Computer game is not security threat. The information that is available via the computer game is a security leak.

 

And you say that ED itself is the urban legend source. Get out of here...

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