G-lock question?

[Tchalla]

Hey Y'all, understand the F-16 is WIP. Just curious if the G-tolerance in turns for the F-16 is truly what one would experience in a real fighter? To me it seems I tend to black out faster than the F-16 or F-14 in dogfights. FYI...I represent the "Chair-Force" so i don't know much.

[SFGCactus]

Hey T'challa,

 

I assume you meant to say F-18 or f-14 dogfights? AFAIK, all pilots with a G-suit inside DCS share the same G resistance. But yes, you do tend to black out easier just because of the insane G acceleration capability of the Viper vs. other airframes. IIRC, the extra G tolerance gained from the reclined seat isn't implemented yet.

[Tchalla]

Yes!!! to many F's. Thank you. Interesting to hear, I'm still managing to get kills without the tolerance so when we get it just makes it even better.

[Syndrome]

GLOC tolerance in the F-16 is a combination of:

• seat recline
  
• PBG (positive pressure breathing, which is currently a nonfunctioning switch on the oxygen control panel that moves at least)
  
• g suits
  
• muscle straining and breathing exercises
  

 

All of which add up to let 94% of F-16 pilots to be able to tolerate >9g forces for a minimum of 15s.

[Skyracer]

From real fighter pilots i have heard that 7Gs is equally challenging as a short run. While 9Gs is like HIIT.

[sk000tch]

GLOC tolerance in the F-16 is a combination of:

• seat recline
  
• PBG (positive pressure breathing, which is currently a nonfunctioning switch on the oxygen control panel that moves at least)
  
• g suits
  
• muscle straining and breathing exercises
  

 

All of which add up to let 94% of F-16 pilots to be able to tolerate >9g forces for a minimum of 15s.

 

Not sure where that 94% number is from but 9G for 15s is part of the viper centrifuge profile. While it is one measure of a pilots G tolerance it doesn't translate 1:1 to in plane performance. We've debating this topic to death in this forum, and I've written essay length posts on the subject, Mover's posted several times and I think made a video discussing it.

 

G-suits add about 1-1.5G historically, new ATAGS is said to be more like 3. Seat recline is a double edged sword. I'm not a viper pilot, but my plane has a similarly reclined seat. I've also flown similar planes with normal recline (all recline some, like 10-15 degrees, viper is 30). The additional recline adds noticeably to tolerance. I have no number to support this, but for me it seems to feel 1-1.5G less.

 

I say its a double edge for a couple reasons. Centrifuge G's are one thing, ACM is a whole other animal. Max G are discussed a lot but jerk is important as well. Jerk is just the rate of change in accel, the second time derivative of V. I.e. Acceleration is to Velocity as Jerk is to Accel. Since I have been flying in a more reclined position I have had my one and only G-LOC and I have developed medical problems in my neck. IIRC flight surgeon data shows viper pilots with increased neck problems relative to pilots of other fighters (its somewhat common in all, just more so in viper). The reline adds to the head movement problem. The worst of which is check six. Neck rotation + extension, often combined with maneuvers creating high jerk or G. I'm no doctor but have had it explained many times, basically when in rotation/extension your vertebrae are not aligned, such that when you apply a strong compression, in my case and many others, it causes the hole your spinal cord goes through to narrow (like when you squish something and it expands), which causes myelopathy (which causes a bunch of other shit not relevant here). Apparently the more parallel to your spine the force is applied the better, the recline adds a sheer like force to the compression, to neck that is already rotated and in extension. Anyway...

 

Like I said, my only g-loc was in a reclined seat. I don't know if it was the seat angle in fairness, or that I'm older, not as strong, fit, having a bad day, etc. It was not a sustained G either, but rather a quick transition from moderate negative to positive. No greyout prior, just, well, nothing... just waking up (quickly, fortunately) near knife edge about 30 nose down. That's why auto-GCAS is so cool, its not always some sustained 9G turn where you're psyched up full AGSM. I don't recall how many saves it has but there was another recently, quite a few pilots still flying b.c. of it.

 

Anyway, my point was to stress that AGSM is the most important factor on the list. It is a skill in and of itself, some pilots are better at it than others. Everyone gets better with practice. But your fitness, leg and core strength, nutrition/hydration, not being hungover, etc., all contribute as well. Like any skill you get rusty as well, if I'm flying 5x/week and sharp I can tolerate much better than if I haven't flow in several weeks.

 

Lastly though I'd add genetics to your list. Some pilots are just blessed with great tolerance, others aren't. Its like vision. Luck of the draw.

 

I'm not sure what they are doing in DCS to overhaul the system but it could definitely use some improvement. Generally speaking it tends to come on too quickly. Apparently they model warm up but I haven't noticed a huge difference. I think it would be cool if fatigue were factored in, as its a big factor. With fresh legs your first turn is much different than after 5 minutes of maneuvering. It just like lifting weights, your one rep max squat is much different than after 5 minutes of almost zero rest between sets.

 

I don't know what they should do about pilot aspect. The CFET profiles are higher for viper pilots than hornet pilots, for example. And they're flown differently. The Hornet's happy at 6-7, but viper pilots get punished. They have, on average, better tolerance though. So, maybe add 1.5G for the recline, another G for higher CFET standards, and a viper at 9G equals a hornet at 7.5? That feels like BS, as 7.5 doesn't feel like 9 even if you're in a friggin lazy boy. Maybe somehow factor in onset. T-37 are notorious for G-LOC, they don't have g-suits but the bigger issue is less experienced pilots and an aircraft capable of rapid onset.

 

Better yet, if they're striving for accuracy, ED should make a thighmaster looking device that you have to squeeze as hard as you can to simulate AGSM... make DCS pilots earn their turns too.

[Angel101]

....

Better yet, if they're striving for accuracy, ED should make a thighmaster looking device that you have to squeeze as hard as you can to simulate AGSM... make DCS pilots earn their turns too.

 

:megalol:

 

How can we explain this to our wifes?

[sk000tch]

:megalol:

 

How can we explain this to our wifes?

 

Ya, I mean, not even close to the weirdest shit I've been caught...

 

So I am digging that little bit of real world SA the off ear headphones on the Index provides though.

[sk000tch]

So little off topic but speaking of auto gcas, good example of what I was talking about re not always sustained G. Warning to pilots this will give ya the willies, and thoughts of lost friends... But this kid blacks out at ~8G real quick, as usual goes nose down b/c bank angle, gets real fast, semi inverted, rapidly increasing dive angle and GCAS amazingly kicks in 2-3 seconds from a bad situation, immediately gets wings level pulls 9.1 at 700 kts to level off a little over 4k ft.

 

Actually I don't think the rules let me post this. If interested, i'm sure google could find a vidua of Auto-GCAS Saves Unconscious F-16 Pilot—Declassified USAF Footage

 

Absolutely amazing though. One of the best advancements in aviation in a long time.

Edited December 16, 2019 by sk000tch

[TheFighterPilot]

Just searching and found this thread. Having just played again today in what has been awhile, I can verify that this G-model is still wrong. You don't black out or have nearly as much limitations as what is in the sim right now.

 

I would argue what it is really doing is taking away from the strength of the Viper and not letting you fight it the way you would truly fight this aircraft in real life. Big highlight example today was 1 v 1 multiplayer against the Hornet. Hornet wants to fight AOA against a viper, and normally a Viper would want to fight a 2 circle rate war...you just can't in this sim right now because you'll black out every single time if you fight the rate airspeed numbers.

[=Panther=]

Just searching and found this thread. Having just played again today in what has been awhile, [...]

 

Well nothing has changed in a while. The viper hasn’t received any QOL upgrades.