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MiG-29's BFM characteristics / doubts


Top Jockey

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What makes me sometimes wonder is that some people forget that high AoA capabilities doesn't' mean that you can't fly by energy instead rate fight. It is just that you have capabilities to go for rates instead energy if so wanted.

 

I know it, the point is:

 

In DCS I always felt that pratically every aircraft (F-15, F/A-18C, Su-27, etc) does have better pitch rate and nose pointing authority than the MiG-29, (except the F-16 obviously).

(In which before experimenting in DCS, I always expected the MiG-29 to be more like an F/A-18C maneuvering wise, from all the literature one reads.)

 

And its tendency to bleed speed easier than others when turning.

 

But the reasons are long known:

- its AOA limiter which instantly pulls its nose down;

(I fully understand its purpose, however I don't like it - I'm trying to put my gunsight on the bandit, and the aircraft itself is trying to pull the nose down when I relax a bit on the stick...)

- lack of unstable configuration design (like the Su-27 or F-16).

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Well I understand that there are many biased members, for either blue or red, for an airframe or another, but that is to be expected - within the healthy opinions exchange.

(I for myself also have my favorite airframes, for instance always found the Fulcrum much more interesting than the Eagle.)

 

Even though I would like to know your technical opinions, on the stuff I posted about the Fulcrum if possible.

Thank you.

 

I think the mistake we make is assuming there is one airframe that will do it all, everything we want it to. Each airframe has its strengths and weaknesses. Take the Viggen for example - that airframe really only has two missions. Try to dog fight in that airframe and you’ll find that it can be done, but other airframes will eat your lunch. The MiG-29 is an awesome light fighter with a super thrust to weight ratio. You’ll have to play into it’s strengths, which I think are mid to close engagements. You have to leverage its strengths (power, agility) against whatever you’re flying against. Most situations we fly into in the game we wouldn’t dream of doing in the real world. But online? Single ship F-14 versus a dozen dissimilars? Hell yeah!

 

You’re right about the F-18 being easier to fly. It is. Just pull in the stick and the aircraft gives what it can. It also means online -18 drivers (myself included) don’t pay much attention to flight envelopes or things like corner speed. We just yank on the stick and go postal when we don’t get a 9G max rate turn (because of weight, speed, etc). I suspect that’s happening to you too. People online tend to fight the battle the same way regardless of what they are flying or in what situation they find themselves. Know your corner speed and understand how weight affects the airframe. I’m not trying to be condescending in any wha and if I came off that way, I apologize.

 

I’m trying to throw out just a few of the variables that can easily tip the scales right OUT of your favor. Everything from configuration, to altitude, to speed, etc, etc - all play a role in how your aircraft responds to you and what it’s capable of doing at any given state. The F-18 just doesn’t respond when you ask more than it can do. The -29, -15, 27 (and others) will allow you to do things you really shouldn’t and get yourself into a pickle.

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Doesn’t holding AP reset turn the limiter off?

 

I'm not sure, but eitherway the nose keeps being pulled down, and the aircraft will oscillate a lot more with the AP reset enabled.

 

I think the mistake we make is assuming there is one airframe that will do it all, everything we want it to. Each airframe has its strengths and weaknesses. Take the Viggen for example - that airframe really only has two missions. Try to dog fight in that airframe and you’ll find that it can be done, but other airframes will eat your lunch. The MiG-29 is an awesome light fighter with a super thrust to weight ratio. You’ll have to play into it’s strengths, which I think are mid to close engagements. You have to leverage its strengths (power, agility) against whatever you’re flying against. Most situations we fly into in the game we wouldn’t dream of doing in the real world. But online? Single ship F-14 versus a dozen dissimilars? Hell yeah!

 

You’re right about the F-18 being easier to fly. It is. Just pull in the stick and the aircraft gives what it can. It also means online -18 drivers (myself included) don’t pay much attention to flight envelopes or things like corner speed. We just yank on the stick and go postal when we don’t get a 9G max rate turn (because of weight, speed, etc). I suspect that’s happening to you too. People online tend to fight the battle the same way regardless of what they are flying or in what situation they find themselves. Know your corner speed and understand how weight affects the airframe. I’m not trying to be condescending in any wha and if I came off that way, I apologize.

 

I’m trying to throw out just a few of the variables that can easily tip the scales right OUT of your favor. Everything from configuration, to altitude, to speed, etc, etc - all play a role in how your aircraft responds to you and what it’s capable of doing at any given state. The F-18 just doesn’t respond when you ask more than it can do. The -29, -15, 27 (and others) will allow you to do things you really shouldn’t and get yourself into a pickle.

 

Be my guest, no problem at all - I appreciate everyone's insight.

And in some part you are probably right also.

 

Even more, if one does pay attention to the different airframes behavior, things tend to match up:

 

- the MiG-29 does pull its sustained turns at a somewhat higher AOA than the Su-27... which means more drag.

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  • 2 weeks later...

...

 

That being as it may, I took your sample missions, deleted the adversary, and flew circles instead using your MiG-29A and Su-27. I left the rest of the mission as it was. So your altitudes, fuel states, etc were used. Here are the numbers I got:

 

Su-27:

Sustained:

  • Turn Rate: 18°/sec @ 7.5 Gs
  • Turn Radius: 750 m

Instantaneous:

  • Turn Rate: 29°/sec @ 10 Gs (Yes, I severely over-G'd the airframe)
  • Turn Radius: 375 m

 

MiG-29A:

Sustained:

  • Turn Rate: 18.5°/sec @ 6.75 Gs
  • Turn Radius: 550 m

Instantaneous:

  • Turn Rate: 25°/sec @ 9.5 Gs
  • Turn Radius: 375 m

 

So, if I were in the MiG-29 and was fighting an Su-27, I'd make it a one circle fight where I can use my sustained turn radius to my advantage. None of this adress the JF-17 but I might find time to take that up at another time after I learn how to get more out of it.

 

Hello everyone,

 

I've been flying the MiG-29 again, and I seem to be improving even a bit more with it in DACM.

However I do have some questions, related to the above data from @Ironhand, at the above conditions:

 

1 - at the Sustained Turn Rates, if the Su-27 is attaining similar STR with the MiG-29, but the Su-27's turn radius is bigger, then so is its speed higher, correct ?

 

2 - does anyone know the absolute maximum ITR and STR values for both jets (sea level, clean config, low fuel) ?

(Searching the web, for the MiG I see frequently: 22º or 23º / sec for STR, and 28º / sec for ITR.)

 

3 - do the values below from "Andraxxus" (12th post), for ITR and STR for the Su-27 and the MiG-29, make sense for you ?

 

Su-27S : ITR - 33,45º / sec

Su-27S : STR - 25,91º / sec

 

MiG-29A : ITR - 28,57º / sec

MiG-29A : STR - 22,94º / sec

 

https://www.key.aero/forum/modern-military-aviation/134062-fighter-agility

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Snip.

One suggestion based off the stream clip,

 

Try and use the gun funnel more often LCOS tends to be much more inaccurate unless you're dead six on him within like 20 degrees of his tail

 

 

Chances are you could've gotten him earlier in the scissors

 

 

 

Simply set it to 13m or 10m at the start

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Come on all of you - my good jet fighter knowledgeables people, help me out with post #131, if you will.

So one can finally have a solid idea of what the MiG and Sukhoi can do - I'm just asking about turn performance.

 

Do you find the Su-27 values somewhat inflated ?

Can the MiG-29A achieve higher values ?

 

Thank you.

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Unfortunately, for #1, I’m not in a position to doublecheck the Su-27 should be higher than the MiG’s by a bit, IIRC.

 

As far as #2 is concerned, Eagle has the charts. I have confidence that the numbers we get in the sim (flying correctly) are very close to the real deal. While all aspects of the flight models may not be 100%, they are a close enough approximation.

 

#3 is simply overly optimistic. The one exception would be the Su-27 with the FBW turned off. The cobra, after all, would certainly be up there.

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  • ED Team

It is very dependable on fuel quantity. I think, the best comparison would be if you use the fuel for the equal time of AB flight.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

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Unfortunately, for #1, I’m not in a position to doublecheck the Su-27 should be higher than the MiG’s by a bit, IIRC.

 

As far as #2 is concerned, Eagle has the charts. I have confidence that the numbers we get in the sim (flying correctly) are very close to the real deal. While all aspects of the flight models may not be 100%, they are a close enough approximation.

 

#3 is simply overly optimistic. The one exception would be the Su-27 with the FBW turned off. The cobra, after all, would certainly be up there.

 

Thank you Ironhand.

 

For #1, what I meant was: for the middle diagram in image below, the fighter in blue arrow / trajectory, should be traveling faster (higher speed), correct ?

 

(I ask, because that's what I believe is happening when both the MiG and the Sukhoi fly at roughly the same STR, as the MiG-29 does have a smaller turn radius.)

 

On #3 I understand, although I believe that with "Direct Control" (S key), the Su-27 pitch rates (and also the ITR) are considerably higher than 33 º / sec... they get crazy.

2098518981_rateampradius.thumb.png.e2f4563cc6afa977a76abbf0c7c13e7a.png

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Yeah people who get these numbers probably pull the paddle or turn off the FBW completely. Which is just...well you know what I'm not gonna say it.

 

The 29 is a pretty dangerous and very capable plane in ACM/BFM if flown properly. However you need to make it quick due to obvious fuel limitations.

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It is very dependable on fuel quantity. I think, the best comparison would be if you use the fuel for the equal time of AB flight.

 

You're right Yo-Yo ... and that's what I've been saying all along - since post #31 on this thread:

 

- 3500 lbs internal fuel for the Fulcrum - roughly 3 mins. full AB;

- 5200 lbs internal fuel for the Flanker - roughly 3 mins. full AB.

 

So, can you share some light about the maximum attainable values of ITR and STR for the MiG-29 and the Su-27 (without Direct Control mode) ?

 

(Basically what I ask on post #131.)

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Hello everyone,

 

I've been flying the MiG-29 again, and I seem to be improving even a bit more with it in DACM.

However I do have some questions, related to the above data from @Ironhand, at the above conditions:

 

1 - at the Sustained Turn Rates, if the Su-27 is attaining similar STR with the MiG-29, but the Su-27's turn radius is bigger, then so is its speed higher, correct ?

 

2 - does anyone know the absolute maximum ITR and STR values for both jets (sea level, clean config, low fuel) ?

(Searching the web, for the MiG I see frequently: 22º or 23º / sec for STR, and 28º / sec for ITR.)

 

3 - do the values below from "Andraxxus" (12th post), for ITR and STR for the Su-27 and the MiG-29, make sense for you ?

 

Su-27S : ITR - 33,45º / sec

Su-27S : STR - 25,91º / sec

 

MiG-29A : ITR - 28,57º / sec

MiG-29A : STR - 22,94º / sec

 

https://www.key.aero/forum/modern-military-aviation/134062-fighter-agility

 

Since he got a lot of those values grossly wrong, I wouldn't trust those figures.

 

This is the best we got on the Su27 (Picture is from this forum):

attachment.php?attachmentid=177679&stc=1&d=1517663330


Edited by Hummingbird
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Top Jockey said:
Thank you Ironhand.

 

For #1, what I meant was: for the middle diagram in image below, the fighter in blue arrow / trajectory, should be traveling faster (higher speed), correct ?

...

Yes but it might be by less than you might think. That's why I answered as I did:

 

 

 

 

One of my ancient tutorials, though the info still applies. Though this is stuff you probably already know.


Edited by Ironhand

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Since he got a lot of those values grossly wrong, I wouldn't trust those figures.

 

This is the best we got on the Su27 (Picture is from this forum):

 

...

 

Thank you for the chart Hummingbird - preciselly the kind of info I want to compare between the 2 of them !

 

Is there any chart of this type for the MiG-29A also ?

 

Yes but it might be by less than you might think. That's why I answered as I did:

 

...

 

One of my ancient tutorials, though the info still applies. Though this is stuff you probably already know.

 

Ironhand, always nostalgic to see a great classic, Su-27 training tutorial from LOMAC ?

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Thank you for the chart Hummingbird - preciselly the kind of info I want to compare between the 2 of them !

 

Is there any chart of this type for the MiG-29A also ?

 

Search for the GAF Mig-29 manuals. I can also DM you the A model ones if you wanna read russian.

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...

Ironhand, always nostalgic to see a great classic, Su-27 training tutorial from LOMAC ?

The video was created in April of 2008. So Lockon: Flaming Cliffs 1.x, I believe. :) Time flies.

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Search for the GAF Mig-29 manuals. I can also DM you the A model ones if you wanna read russian.

 

Airhunter, I do have the GAF MiG-29 in english.

 

However with many charts it might have, it doesn't have one which states turn rates / airspeed, like the one Hummingbird posted above for the Su-27...

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Afaik the best source for the Su-27 and MiG-29 are their manuals. First is the chart from the Su-27 manual, gonna try and find the MiG-29 one:

image.pngThe chart is G vs airspeed in Kmh

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Afaik the best source for the Su-27 and MiG-29 are their manuals. First is the chart from the Su-27 manual, gonna try and find the MiG-29 one:

 

...

 

The chart is G vs airspeed in Kmh

 

Thank you dundun92, I appreciate it ! :thumbup:

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  • ED Team
Afaik the best source for the Su-27 and MiG-29 are their manuals. First is the chart from the Su-27 manual, gonna try and find the MiG-29 one:

image.pngThe chart is G vs airspeed in Kmh

 

I would not trust this chart to be a precise reference because the forms of curves are very far from physically based: AB performance at medium and especially high altitudes has distinctive hump before transsonic range and a valley within this range.

Compare this chart to any AB aircraft - F-15, MiG-29, etc...

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

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I would not trust this chart to be a precise reference because the forms of curves are very far from physically based: AB performance at medium and especially high altitudes has distinctive hump before transsonic range and a valley within this range.

Compare this chart to any AB aircraft - F-15, MiG-29, etc...

How would you compare this chart to, say, the one hummingbird posted earlier?

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Hello again everyone,

 

NATOPS manual for MiG-29A, mentions in the turn performance diagram:

 

- at sea level

- clean configuration

- gross weight: 28,750 lbs (roughly 50 % internal fuel)

- maximum afterburner

 

"quickest turn" - 26,64 deg/sec - which I take as ITR

"max. sustained turn" - 20,77 deg/sec - which I take as STR

 

Is this data attained without pulling the paddle switch ?

 

... however several sites throughout the web frequently mention, respectively 28 deg/sec and 22 deg/sec.

 

The GAF flight manual states the turn performance in G's, which I don't know how to convert to deg/sec.

 

If anyone knows different data on the MiG-29A I would really appreciate to hear it.

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Hello again everyone,

 

NATOPS manual for MiG-29A, mentions in the turn performance diagram:

 

- at sea level

- clean configuration

- gross weight: 28,750 lbs (roughly 50 % internal fuel)

- maximum afterburner

 

"quickest turn" - 26,64 deg/sec - which I take as ITR

"max. sustained turn" - 20,77 deg/sec - which I take as STR

 

Is this data attained without pulling the paddle switch ?

 

... however several sites throughout the web frequently mention, respectively 28 deg/sec and 22 deg/sec.

 

The GAF flight manual states the turn performance in G's, which I don't know how to convert to deg/sec.

 

If anyone knows different data on the MiG-29A I would really appreciate to hear it.

 

You can get turn rate from G if you also know the speed.

 

But the paddle switch?

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You can get turn rate from G if you also know the speed.

 

But the paddle switch?

 

I'm refering to the AoA limiter ( S key in game ), as: wouldn't using it allow for an higher Instantaneous Turn Rate ?

 

Can you tell me the formula ?

(Some sites ask for bank angle too ?)

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