[FIXED] HUD: A picture is worth a thousand words?

[Fri13]

Correct a good post. I've attached a couple real world images that illustrates the limitation of a 2D view.

 

Thanks

 

In the first picture it is clear that the HUD symbology is directly from the HUD CRT projector, as it is visible in its reflection.

 

And the HUD glass is perfectly flat, so it projects straight image that gets reflected on it.

 

So doesn't it mean that no symbology in the HUD can exist outside the CRT size and it's reflection?

 

Like example in current MiG-21Bis the HUD grid is clearly much larger than the reflection of the CRT?

 

Like ain't the HUD designed so that smaller CRT projects a larger image to HUD glass, and so on HUD does show it larger than what the projector size is?

But then the projector reflection should look as well larger and so on it couldn't cut off the HUD symbology like it does on that first real photo?

 

I believe this shows well the problem https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3574225&postcount=1

 

As when I did fly new cockpit for one evening, I didn't have anything like that as problem (I did fly in VR) but only difference really was that HUD top edge was below horizon line in HUD.

[lxsapper]

So doesn't it mean that no symbology in the HUD can exist outside the CRT size and it's reflection?

 

Yes and No. The circle projected onto the HUD is a Reflection of the CRT on a mirroe and then passed thorugh a lens to set the focus at infinity. So you are not seeing the whole CRT and by moving your viewpoint you can see more information on the edges. This is also the main reason the HUD has a limited FOV.

[randomTOTEN]

More investigation of the eyepoint/eyeline/cockpit/HUD alignment. I'm starting with the eyepoint, eyeline and cockpit, since it affect many other aspects of the simulation beyond just the HUD. There's no sense adjusting the HUD to work with a broken cockpit view.

 

 

For the pilot (first person) perspective, I have made no view input other than adjusting the zoom to a more realistic perspective. The issue of proper zoom is beyond the current discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

To verify the placement of the pilot in the external model, here's a real life reference photo.

 

 

From the Virtual Cockpit (VC), with only adjusted zoom.

 

 

This matches almost perfectly with the 2nd image Wag's posted. I suspect that what we've seen is a research photo, as it seems to replicate the cockpit references very closely.

 

 

 

 

So it seems we have at least an accurately modeled cockpit, with a accurately placed eyepoint, looking at a accurately located and sized combiner glass. The last piece of the puzzle then is the HUD projection itself :book::thumbup:

 

 

 

 

TANGENT: Adjustable height seats in DCS World aren't accurate, but I can see the benefit of coding them this way. The reality is that the aircraft is designed to be operated from a single pilot perspective, and the seat functions to account for different pilot stature in placing everyone's eyes in the same location. If the DCS seats worked properly, the seats would move up and down, but the view would remain motionless. This was the initial implementation of adjustable seats, and users complained that the interaction was broken. Now it seems that the view moves in a reduced rate as a seat, but allows us minor adjustment of the vertical eyepoint... which can probably be accepted as allowing for individual pilot tastes. But now we're forced to correctly align the eyepont, and I hope the solution is to place it correctly when the aircraft loads (no need to change seat position.

[NineLine]

So, trackIR is now part of the minimum system requirements for the Hog? Without it, you can’t use the HUD.

 

I think the best might be to have an option for the A-10, that let’s you choose between 2D and 3D optimisation of the cockpit.

The goal should be that the sim is usable for all customers, having VR, TrackIR, or none of that.

 

It's not unplayable without head tracking. Again, even without TrackIR, I have no issue using the A-10C. I believe it's still being tweaked, but I don't think it needs to be listed in the specs, even how it is now.

 

Obviously when it comes to viewing a completely 3D cockpit, No Headtracking<Head Tracking<VR

Edited December 26, 2019 by NineLine

[Stuka]

It's not unplayable without head tracking.

 

It is.

[Ercoupe]

Since I don't have track IR, and I'm playing it...it isn't. As a matter of fact, I'm not really understanding what the issue is.

[Wrench]

You can't see the whole HUD of the A-10C in VR or real life either. I've heard RL pilots talk about bobbing their head around.

[blackasdf]

It's not unplayable without head tracking. Again, even without TrackIR, I have no issue using the A-10C. I believe it's still being tweaked, but I don't think it needs to be listed in the specs, even how it is now.

 

Obviously when it comes to viewing a completely 3D cockpit, No Headtracking<Head Tracking<VR

 

I think that the advantages of VR are clear to everyone, the point here is that even if the geometry, the head positioning etc etc were wrong before this patch, you have now "fixed" something that was forgotten for many many years, and it was working better for almost everyone except for VR users.

 

As usual, we are going to fly it, work around limitations and people is going to defend your choices no matter what, but i'm sure that you can clearly see the before and after difference and deep down you know it was better playable before these updates.

[Komrad]

I think that the advantages of VR are clear to everyone, the point here is that even if the geometry, the head positioning etc etc were wrong before this patch, you have now "fixed" something that was forgotten for many many years, and it was working better for almost everyone except for VR users.

 

As usual, we are going to fly it, work around limitations and people is going to defend your choices no matter what, but i'm sure that you can clearly see the before and after difference and deep down you know it was better playable before these updates.

 

It's clear to me, at least on my system, that ED have dropped the ball on this one.

 

I made the mistake of updating my non beta install which of course led to the A10c HUD being messed up, but I managed to roll back to the previous version so no harm done.

 

Komrad.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Komrad

[huppel]

Correct a good post. I've attached a couple real world images that illustrates the limitation of a 2D view.

 

Thanks

 

 

Ah, I'm playing in VR and never even realized this with the new cockpit. But when I close one of my eyes indeed part of the HUD is gone ;)

With both eyes open I can see the whole HUD. View for VR users is perfect now, hope if it will be changed this view will be made an option

 

 

Best,

 

 

 

Marcel

[sirrah]

Ah, I'm playing in VR and never even realized this with the new cockpit. But when I close one of my eyes indeed part of the HUD is gone ;)

With both eyes open I can see the whole HUD. View for VR users is perfect now, hope if it will be changed this view will be made an option

 

 

Best,

 

 

 

Marcel

 

Same here

Although I lower the seat a little as a personal preference, I can see the entire HUD in VR without any issues

[DayGlow]

It's clear to me, at least on my system, that ED have dropped the ball on this one.

 

I made the mistake of updating my non beta install which of course led to the A10c HUD being messed up, but I managed to roll back to the previous version so no harm done.

 

Komrad.

 

If only there was some way to change the default head position so that more of the HUD is visible for those who want it...

[nighthawk2174]

Is it possible just to make it an option in the special options to switch between the old and new settings?

[NoJoe]

I also have no problems reading the new HUD, both with and without TrackIR. You can simply adjust and save your default viewpoint position as desired, and it's good to go.

 

Default keys to use to adjust your viewpoint:

Hold RCtrl and RShift, then use the numpad keys to move the view around. / and * move forward and back.

To save the view hold RAlt and press the numpad 0.

 

That should save this as the new default view, which should take effect the next time you load the plane. Easy!

[sc_neo]

Still; if there is a significant difference in HUD visibility between VR and 2d now, one of the two representations must be less realistic. In the end i prefer realism of experience over realism of 1to1 ratios, angles and lenghts. If in real life one sees the entire HUD from the proper resting seating position, one should see it then both in VR and 2d, even if this means ED has to code a proper and geometrically correct HUD for VR that is completly visible due to parallax vision in VR, and a second compressed HUD that is completly visible on a monitor. What counts is to have an experience that is as close to reality as can be, not whether this or that value or lengths is on a one to one scale.

[Puma]

This reminds me of when everyone complained that full screen night vision got “taken away”. ED has made the sim more sim. More realistic. If you want easy to fly, go play hawx or ace combat. If the community continues to hammer ED for attempting a change, they will take the path of least resistance and stop even trying to improve existing modules.

 

Nobody has ever claimed this sim is being built to be accessible. Get head tracking, and learn to look around the pit. Its realistic, and challenging.

[EasyEB]

Cyclops flying A-10s are realistic?

[lxsapper]

Still; if there is a significant difference in HUD visibility between VR and 2d now, one of the two representations must be less realistic. In the end i prefer realism of experience over realism of 1to1 ratios, angles and lenghts. If in real life one sees the entire HUD from the proper resting seating position, one should see it then both in VR and 2d, even if this means ED has to code a proper and geometrically correct HUD for VR that is completly visible due to parallax vision in VR, and a second compressed HUD that is completly visible on a monitor. What counts is to have an experience that is as close to reality as can be, not whether this or that value or lengths is on a one to one scale.

 

Though I simpatize with the premisse of your position, I don't think you realize what you are asking.

[Harker]

Though I simpatize with the premisse of your position, I don't think you realize what you are asking.

He's not wrong, though. We can't have a module that works well only in VR or only in 2D. Working well with both is a minimum requirement.

[SmirkingGerbil]

This is an excellent post!

 

 

I am a Track IR user, and have adjusted.

 

Created a couple of snap views, and all is good to go. I love the new cockpit!

[lxsapper]

He's not wrong, though. We can't have a module that works well only in VR or only in 2D. Working well with both is a minimum requirement.

 

Well I'd argue that the module works in 2D just fine, specialy if people bother to follow the simple solution that was given several times by several people including my self. But honestly seems like people aren't even bothering to listen.

And FYI i do have a VR headset but I'm in the process of selling it for a number of reasons, so I will continue to fly this in 2D alone. So it's not like I'm arguing for VR only looking out for myself here.

As for what is beeing asked I'm sorry it is wrong. Again I simpatize, but you have not thought through the problem, nor through the solution that is proposed to realize, just how non-viable it is.

[Harker]

Well I'd argue that the module works in 2D just fine, specialy if people bother to follow the simple solution that was given several times by several people including my self. But honestly seems like people aren't even bothering to listen.

 

And FYI i do have a VR headset but I'm in the process of selling it for a number of reasons, so I will continue to fly this in 2D alone. So it's not like I'm arguing for VR only looking out for myself here.

 

As for what is beeing asked I'm sorry it is wrong. Again I simpatize, but you have not thought through the problem, nor through the solution that is proposed to realize, just how non-viable it is.

I'm not saying it's unusable, merely inconvenient. My issue is that I can't see the top information, it's fine left/right for the most part. But it's certainly usable, my issue is that certain menus and options screens are hard to see with TrackIR.

If the issue is just the viewpoint indeed, a simple option in the Special tab, that reverts it back to the old one, is all it takes, right?

[lxsapper]

I'm not saying it's unusable, merely inconvenient. My issue is that I can't see the top information, it's fine left/right for the most part. But it's certainly usable, my issue is that certain menus and options screens are hard to see with TrackIR.

If the issue is just the viewpoint indeed, a simple option in the Special tab, that reverts it back to the old one, is all it takes, right?

 

Sure, but why when you can set and save your own custom default viewpoint?

But I'll grant you this: something has changed in the vertical display of the HUD. As I haven't been able to reproduce the same exact view as before. But you can absolutely get a nice convenient view where all of the HUD is visible.

 

Here I Saved this as the default view, it's not exactly as the old default viewpoint, but I think it's close enough on the new geometry, and you can read all of the HUD at once:

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by lxsapper

[Snoopy]

Just got done talking to two different 76th pilots on the spot after jets landed down here at Moody AFB. Both said in the air all the data is visible on the HUD that only on the ground do you have to lower your head to see items at the top.

 

I’m flying the real world sim our pilots train on here at Moody tomorrow morning so more to follow.

[=Panther=]

Just got done talking to two different 76th pilots on the spot after jets landed down here at Moody AFB. Both said in the air all the data is visible on the HUD that only on the ground do you have to lower your head to see items at the top.

 

I’m flying the real world sim our pilots train on here at Moody tomorrow morning so more to follow.

 

Good to hear that from real pilots.