RWR notification ridiculous

[Anklebiter]

 

There seems to be some hostility towards the OP post, which i don't understand....

 

 

Probably because the title of the thread is "RWR notification ridiculous".

 

 

There are other, more respectful ways to report bugs and point out flaws.

[Harlikwin]

I'm wrecking face even with the current Jeff rwr in any server that doesn't have f14 on the other side XD. Why is that plane so much better than its modern replacements? Stupid maverick with Ethan hunt as his hacker Rio. XD

 

Well, I think part of it is that radar modeling in DCS is quite oversimplified. The F14 radar reputedly isn't actually all that good over land for various reasons that I don't think are all that well modeled. The phoenix is a hot topic as to if its over/under modeled relative to other missiles as well. We don't have a real good test case data for it, as US ROE were often very strict. But data from the Iran Iraq war suggests it was proper bastard of a missile when it actually worked (the high fail rate is not modeled in DCS). And kinematically the F14B is a beast. Having flown it online I don't find it that over powered at least when I have Jester as a RIO, since half the time he can't find targets or can't lock them (or they are all smart and go defensive at about 30-40nm to dump the locks).

[shaHeen-1]

Hope they fix the rwr so we can use SPJ to full potential. Jf17 has its strengths.

[Mav783]

Yeah, I think this is one of those cases of people "Training wrong" based on the old behavior of the sim (which was realistic but incomplete) and when the realism of TWS hits them in the face they think something is broken.

 

The reason TWS is so powerful is that you get almost no warning. You get the standard nails on the RWR like you were used to pre TWS, but you get 0 warning like you used on a STT launch. You do might get a warning when the missile goes active, and at that point its a few seconds away at best. So the SD 10 is working fine and the hornet RWR is working fine. Basically the old-way was Get nails, get STT lock warning, sit around with a thumb up your butt while you shot off a missile in reply, then maybe do some cranking and finally go defensive. The -new- way is if you get the missile warning and you aren't already defensive before you get it, you're probably gonna die even you go defensive the instant you get it. Better git gud at reading the tactical situation.

 

 

The issue with the Jeff RWR is that you don't even see the nails half the time, or get STT launch warnings reliably. Both of those work just fine in the hornet. And I spent a fair amount of time online last week in the hornet dodging both Aim120's and SD10's in a hornet with no unexpected issues.

 

TLDR. Its not an F18 or SD10 problems, its an F18 player problem.

 

Interested by this post cause i felt the RWR is strange. But...

But i agree with you also !

That + i never meet any problem with radar alert, facing SAM with the JF-17 or Hornet (even if i'm not using the Hornet that much...).

The only moments i can lose the alert or i don't have it, it is when my missile launch alert sensors are in a dead angle. And this is not a problem, this is realistic. And angle of detection of sensor are modelised in all aircraft.

For exemple here, where it's possible to see the field of view of the DDM (IR launch warning) sensors in the Mirage 2000 throught a debug mod :

I don't know if EM sensors have also dead angles and "limited" field of view as IR sensors, but i think it can be also an explanation (?).

So, i'm interested to know how EM sensors work (IR i know) :)

 

But maybe theire is some issue with some missiles ! (i feel like i also but i doubt myself) ...

For exemple, 0.5 secondes before impact look prety fast for the activation of a missile, no ? (maybe it's ok, i don't know how a AIM120C work in real with it radar).

Edited January 11, 2020 by Mav783

[shaHeen-1]

It shouldn't be that fast esp with no "tracking" "tracking" warning from the host plane. I think. A big issue is that you can't tell which direction you're being locked from so you can't dodge or retaliate. Even mig21 rwr let's you know the rough direction.

[Harlikwin]

Interested by this post cause i felt the RWR is strange. But...

But i agree with you also !

That + i never meet any problem with radar alert, facing SAM with the JF-17 or Hornet (even if i'm not using the Hornet that much...).

The only moments i can lose the alert or i don't have it, it is when my missile launch alert sensors are in a dead angle. And this is not a problem, this is realistic. And angle of detection of sensor are modelised in all aircraft.

For exemple here, where it's possible to see the field of view of the DDM (IR launch warning) sensors in the Mirage 2000 throught a debug mod :

I don't know if EM sensors have also dead angles and "limited" field of view as IR sensors, but i think it can be also an explanation (?).

So, i'm interested to know how EM sensors work (IR i know) :)

 

But maybe theire is some issue with some missiles ! (i feel like i also but i doubt myself) ...

For exemple, 0.5 secondes before impact look prety fast for the activation of a missile, no ? (maybe it's ok, i don't know how a AIM120C work in real with it radar).

 

RWR's typically have large dead zones at the top and bottom of the aircraft they are mainly looking for signals to the "sides" of the AC.

 

To grossly oversimplify, EM sensors are just directional antennas, you calculate bearing based on time/phase differences of the signal received by the antennas, old school RWRs had 4 antennas and compared signal differences between them to get a bearing. Newer systems are a wee bit more complicated.

[Harlikwin]

Hope they fix the rwr so we can use SPJ to full potential. Jf17 has its strengths.

 

Most modern missiles also have home on jam modes... So....

[shaHeen-1]

SPJ can do a bit more than that. Like tell you missile type and range.

[Harlikwin]

SPJ can do a bit more than that. Like tell you missile type and range.

 

Even when they haven't gone pitbull? Does it detect the D/L? Cuz at this point if I have any warning at all its about 1-2 seconds worth. Which is probably realistic so I'm not bitching.

[Mav783]

RWR's typically have large dead zones at the top and bottom of the aircraft they are mainly looking for signals to the "sides" of the AC.

 

To grossly oversimplify, EM sensors are just directional antennas, you calculate bearing based on time/phase differences of the signal received by the antennas, old school RWRs had 4 antennas and compared signal differences between them to get a bearing. Newer systems are a wee bit more complicated.

 

Ok thanks for the info :)

[shaHeen-1]

Even when they haven't gone pitbull? Does it detect the D/L? Cuz at this point if I have any warning at all its about 1-2 seconds worth. Which is probably realistic so I'm not bitching.

 

You're telling me that missile manages to get within 1-2 seconds of me without any tracking?

[Harlikwin]

You're telling me that missile manages to get within 1-2 seconds of me without any tracking?

 

YES! That's how TWS works. Its tracking you and 4 other targets, none of you get any track warnings (at least with the generation of RWR's we are using in DCS and how they are modeled). Its sending your position to the missile via a freq hopping encrypted data link. Therefore you only get a warning when the missile itself goes pitbul 1-2 seconds out at best. IF someone shoots it close you basically get not even 1 second cuz its moving so fast.

 

Whatever you learned about missiles in DCS prior to TWS is now obsolete (i.e. STT warnings). If you are within missile range of a target you better assume he just fired on you and go defensive, otherwise you are dead. This is the other reason everyone is clamoring for a working DL for the jeff, so they can figure out who is where and when to go defensive.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Harlikwin

[AeriaGloria]

Not saying anyone is right, but with the 15nm pit bull range in DCS, 2 seconds gives a speed of 27,000 knots.

Edited January 12, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[Harlikwin]

Not saying anyone is right, but with the 15nm pit bull range in DCS, 2 seconds gives a speed of 27,000 knots.

 

It doesnt go pitbul at anywhere near that range thats more or less the max range id employ it... 2-3nn pitbul in many cases is my guess. And if its head on with you at combined speed of mach 4-6 is why you get almost no warning.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Harlikwin

[AeriaGloria]

Yeah I made a mistake, still getting used to capitalist numbers. It’s about 15km they go pit bull, so 7-8nm I think. Surprising how hard it is to find the answer. If we use 7nm conservatively, that’s still 12,600 knots.

[Alleluia]

Thats mach 3

[shaHeen-1]

What I meant was 0 warning from either plane or missile.

[AeriaGloria]

Exactly. The bug is the rwr. If interested there is lots of mentions of pit bull distance in the many AIM-54 threads in the past year. I only remember 15km of Pitbull from the J-11A introduction and people talking about when they can break away without having an time to active counter.

 

Alleluia, 12,600 knots might be Mach 3 underwater:)

 

 

I am hoping this fixed pitbull distance changes with the new guidance API. IIRC the target size adjustment changes pitbull engagement distance?

Edited January 12, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[Harlikwin]

Yeah I made a mistake, still getting used to capitalist numbers. It’s about 15km they go pit bull, so 7-8nm I think. Surprising how hard it is to find the answer. If we use 7nm conservatively, that’s still 12,600 knots.

 

I thin ita much much closer in many cases. You gotta understand if someone is guiding tws it wont pitbul till the last second. You are using mac pitbul ranges not minimum.

[AeriaGloria]

In DCS? In real life I’m sure there’s ways to make that happen depending on platform and missile.

 

When I was a Sukhoi main I never saw a fox 3 BVR shot go pitbull on me when it was already near full strength on rwr, they all started at minimum strength. It would be cool to have it.

 

And just to be clear, I was thinking we are both referring to a TWS launch where aircraft radar provides updates. Maybe I’m not fully understanding, but are you perhaps referring to just someone shooting within max pitbull range and it’s active off the rail? Because I thought you are saying that in DCS if I launch in TWS from greater then 15km, sometimes it won’t command pitbull until 1-2s TTI. Is that what you mean or do you mean someone shooting very close based off a TWS track beforehand?

 

Personally I’m thinking you are just experiencing someone shooting you very close, if that is the case there are no mid course updates/commands. I had always believed this is one of the changes needed for Phoenix missile to be realistic, to get around fixed pitbull in DCS.

[Harlikwin]

In DCS? In real life I’m sure there’s ways to make that happen depending on platform and missile.

 

When I was a Sukhoi main I never saw a fox 3 BVR shot go pitbull on me when it was already near full strength on rwr, they all started at minimum strength. It would be cool to have it.

 

And just to be clear, I was thinking we are both referring to a TWS launch where aircraft radar provides updates. Maybe I’m not fully understanding, but are you perhaps referring to just someone shooting within max pitbull range and it’s active off the rail? Because I thought you are saying that in DCS if I launch in TWS from greater then 15km, sometimes it won’t command pitbull until 1-2s TTI. Is that what you mean or do you mean someone shooting very close based off a TWS track beforehand?

 

Personally I’m thinking you are just experiencing someone shooting you very close, if that is the case there are no mid course updates/commands. I had always believed this is one of the changes needed for Phoenix missile to be realistic, to get around fixed pitbull in DCS.

 

Both really. I think in most jets most really short warnings are a combination of short firing range AND/or being fired out of the detection coverage of the rwr. If some stratospehric aim54 goes pitbul and its out of your rwr coverage, poof youre dead. Same thing for aim120 or sd10 fired at close range. Especially the sd10 since its super fast. In the jeff the rwr not working might be an issue too. Ive had it ID 120s and aim54s before sometimes, not others. Plus there is the maws to make troubleshooting more complicated.

 

Ive seen the whole missile goes pitbul at long range scenario, those are easy to dodge since you have time. But its not always the case in the jeff or rhe f18.

 

Also i suspect that ed might have updated the code such that if its still being guided by the plane missile doesnt go active until min distance now. I.e. it will pitbul at 15 if you break tws to go defensive, but if you are guiding it in it might be closer. I know what the old missile behaviour "was", im just not sure it still "is"

Edited January 12, 2020 by Harlikwin

[Pikey]

The Aim-120 pitbull gave 15 seconds of reliable "M" on the RWR once the missile went active, and that's nothing to do with the mode it was fired in, the STT lock was completely seperate and visible on RWR.

 

Are we saying that the SD-10 doesnt go pitbull until a few seconds before impact, or the RWR doesn't pick up the missile when it goes active? I suspect the RWR isnt working _at all_.

 

I think its the MWS that people are referring to for the late notification, which in my mind is still wrong because at that point the missile is fully gliding and not emitting classic rocket heat that MWS (afaik) uses for it's detections.

 

Either way the RWR went pear shaped on the first patch and it's pending a vast amount of fix so this conversation is a bit moot as we shoudl expect that behaviour to change.

 

MWS is a bit too effective in DCS, I might well be wrong but my understanding is that MWS is an all round detector that picks up the heat energy of the missile and is classicly used as a warning for IR ground SAM's. I believe it to be completely overmodelled in DCS.

[Harlikwin]

As for the MWS being overmodled. Any thermal based detection system will have 0 issues detecting anything above the aircraft because sky is basically "space" and "space" is "cold" really really "cold" (cue douglas adams). Which at a guess is most missiles that are "falling" on you. Beyond that under the aircraft it depends. Water will basically be like sky "cold". Beyond that cool ground (night) same story. Only during the day over "hot" ground should there ever be any sort of potential problem. And even then the missile should warmer than background due to friction heating/residual heat.

[Terrorban]

I do appreciate all the trivia and opinions here but did the developers acknowledge yet that there is indeed a problem with SD-10 not showing up on its target's RWR until it is few seconds away?

 

Before JF-17 I used to fly a lot in Hornet and there have been many times where I blew up without any response from my RWR. I always took it as pilot error. Now if I remember correctly, RWR does not surround the jet, it has blind spots. There have been many discussions like this back when Hornet was released and people who were getting shot down with the AIM-120 were making similar arguements.

[Harlikwin]

The Aim-120 pitbull gave 15 seconds of reliable "M" on the RWR once the missile went active, and that's nothing to do with the mode it was fired in, the STT lock was completely seperate and visible on RWR.

 

Are we saying that the SD-10 doesnt go pitbull until a few seconds before impact, or the RWR doesn't pick up the missile when it goes active? I suspect the RWR isnt working _at all_.

 

I think its the MWS that people are referring to for the late notification, which in my mind is still wrong because at that point the missile is fully gliding and not emitting classic rocket heat that MWS (afaik) uses for it's detections.

 

Either way the RWR went pear shaped on the first patch and it's pending a vast amount of fix so this conversation is a bit moot as we shoudl expect that behaviour to change.

 

MWS is a bit too effective in DCS, I might well be wrong but my understanding is that MWS is an all round detector that picks up the heat energy of the missile and is classicly used as a warning for IR ground SAM's. I believe it to be completely overmodelled in DCS.

 

I think there are several separate issues being discussed here.

 

SD-10 and its pitbul range vs Aim120 and in general guidance behavior between the two

SD-10 and possible problems with other planes RWRs

 

JF17's RWR (known bugged)

 

I have 2 beautiful examples from yesterday in the JF17. First flight I got nuked by a Hawk, no warnings at all, just trucking along and poof.

 

Next mission I got tracking warnings from 2 different F14's, Aim54's showed up the RWR, I dodged them, A sidewinders showed up in the MAWS after that, that I didn't dodge, but it all worked as advertised.