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Eurofighter typhoon


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This is the like the 20th thread I have seen started about the Eurofighter typhoon. Like others have stated if an aircraft is still in service its a no go until it has been retired and its systems have been declassified. And that is for it to just be considered. See this announcement about the OH-58D Kiowa to read more about what it takes to bring a new module to DCS.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2019-11-29_Kiowa_Announced/

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Simply put, no.

More detailed answer : classified specifications of sensitive systems. Same apply for any Gen 4.5/5 aircrafts.

 

Reason I asked is because I remember a third party developer was making this as a module but it stalled, and now it has been cancelled I believe. I take it theres no news of a new one or a continuation?

 

And isn't JF17 a 4th generation aircraft made in the same time period and yet that was released?

 

Im guessing if they wanted to make it they would replace the classified systems in the real aircraft with an interpreted system and either loosely based on the real one or not at all. Probably wouldnt be a full fidelity aircraft either.

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Reason I asked is because I remember a third party developer was making this as a module but it stalled, and now it has been cancelled I believe. I take it theres no news of a new one or a continuation?

A Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 1 (a very early Typhoon variant with pretty limitied capabilities) was indeed in development for DCS by 3rd party developer VEAO (the guys who also made the Hawk jet trainer for DCS), but they went bancrupt and the Hawk had to be removed from DCS.

They apparently had special contracts with the british MoD, giving them access to classified documents regarding the Typhoon.

 

Here are some of their old dev reports:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1477323

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=144730

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=184632

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Not going to happen I'm afraid the relevant documentation and data just isn't available for developers.

 

The JF-17 got done because there was enough available material to simulate it's systems (not sure how much guesswork went into it though).

 

The Typhoon on the other hand, yeah good luck finding out about the ins and outs of basically anything apart from engines and what it looks like. It also has a voice-interface something never done before - which will probably take a lot of work. RADAR pfft... new ones are DBF AESA (so completely new RADAR technology to develop, leaps and bounds ahead of anything currently in DCS) and the necessary data and documentation, manuals and the such like for it - pretty much all restricted AFAIK - good luck.

 

Plus while I'd like a Typhoon I have to recognise that it's a little beyond the current scope. DCS IMO should focus on 60s-80s airframes as that's where much of it's scope lies.

 

I know in simulators balance isn't a factor and anything can be competitive given practice and skill, but DCS is already BLUFOR biased in full fidelity modules, particularly modern ones - F/A-18C and F-16 we have are both 2000s era, Mirage 2000C and AV-8B modern too. What's the most modern full-fidelity REDFOR aircraft we have? MiG-21Bis from the mid 70s? Stepping down to FC3 and we have the Soviet-era first production Su-27S Flanker B and first production and first upgrade MiG-29 Fulcrum A and MiG-29S Fulcrum C... The Su-33 Flanker D we have is essentially identical in capability to the Flanker B +2 hardpoints but slightly heavier. So for me, while I'd like it and not personally against, I feel like I'm against it on the grounds that it'll probably have to be guesstimated and only tips the balance further in BLUFORs favour, not to mention licensing and such.


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

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This is the like the 20th thread I have seen started about the Eurofighter typhoon. Like others have stated if an aircraft is still in service its a no go until it has been retired and its systems have been declassified. And that is for it to just be considered. See this announcement about the OH-58D Kiowa to read more about what it takes to bring a new module to DCS.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2019-11-29_Kiowa_Announced/

 

Half the aircraft in DCS are ''still in service'' including the USA. I really... REALLY wish people would stop repeating this nonsense. In your own link there is nothing mentioned about classification or service. They need permission from the IP holder to use their name and logo on their product. As applies to EVERY PRODUCT ON THE PLANET.

 

Classification is UTTERLY IRRELEVANT. You need permission from the IP holder and possibly from the government depending on what you're doing and whether they object to it. The more recent it is the more hoops you'll have to jump through, but classification and service status matters NOT AT ALL.


Edited by zhukov032186

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If VEAO can be believed they at least greenlit Tranche 1. But that was an airframe no one (?) wanted against the current versions. I suspect nope is the easiest answer and a longer nope because ... is beyond discussing until someone can talk about the because.

 

Popular idea, for sure. Avionics and code heavy? You betcha, a research nightmare.

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Hey zhukov if classified material is utterly irrelevant what's this?

 

You need permission from the IP holder and possibly from the government depending on what you're doing
:doh:

 

Who decides whether something is classified again? Who decides the laws on whether or not said material can be distributed again?

 

From Wags:

 

"The Company develops all of its DCS aircraft game modules exclusively on the basis of publicly available information and has never used nor tried to obtain any classified information."

 

Source: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=240962

 

If documentation is necessary or pertinent to the development of a particular module but said information isn't publicly available (i.e classified) what does that mean in terms of the prospect of developing the module?

 

I mean why can't we have modern REDFOR aircraft? "Because the Russian government says so" Now why might that be?

 

 

Sure you can jump through hoops, make approximations (which DCS has to do anyway for hardware/performance reasons, an example is practically every emitter) or just apply guesstimations practically in the blind with stuff requiring classified material omitted (an example being IFF transponders which are super approximated, with next to no in-cockpit functionality).

 

Approximations, and essentially guesstimations with accurate information few and far between has already stirred controversy with what exactly the Ka-50 can or can't carry and it's led us to having a hybrid aircraft.

 

Now what if this were say a RADAR, well that's a giant flaming hurdle right there, let alone probably requiring new technology to simulate DBF AESA RADARs like the CAPTOR-E.

 

 

VEAO supposedly had a special contract agreement to produce... wait for it... the most basic initial production variant the UK operated, the Tranche 1 while I don't know which block they were developing (hopefully it would've been Block 5 with A/G capabilities), it raises the question on feasibility... AFAIK AMRAAM C-5, GPS guided weapons, GBU-24 etc didn't come until Tranche 2 Block 10 - though information is hard to come by and hard to verify - I wonder why...

 

Foregoing the classified stuff at best it's a research nightmare when there are so many aircraft, where information is far more readily available, that fit within the current scope which I'd argue is 70s to early 00s with obvious exceptions.


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

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Ya. It’s not going to happen, but would be great plane. Remember Ef-2000?

 

 

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Remember Ef-2000?

Still playing it from time to time with a friend on my Pentium II 300MHz computer. Nice. Really nice.

 

Side note: Maybe ED or someone else someday decides to bring the EF2000 e.g. into Modern Air Combat.

If DID went for a sim in 1995, why ED in 2020 not?

Simplified systems, simplified aerodynamics, use existing weapon systems.

Some of the data (inertia, aerodynamic, rates) could easily be re-calclulated from videos, official documents and sources, and of course only for "project purposes" ... )

A good SME (maybe a pilot from an airforce) can help massively with the "feeling" and principles of the aircraft (even not revealing any secrets).

A wonderful 3D model ... hey ... what more can a modern air combat pilot ask for (including me ...)? :)


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Eurofighter typhoon

 

Still playing it from time to time with a friend on my Pentium II 300MHz computer. Nice. Really nice.

 

Side note: Maybe ED or someone else someday decides to bring the EF2000 e.g. into Modern Air Combat.

If DID went for a sim in 1995, why ED in 2020 not?

Simplified systems, simplified aerodynamics, use existing weapon systems.

Some of the data (inertia, aerodynamic, rates) could easily be re-calclulated from videos, official documents and sources, and of course only for "project purposes" ... )

A good SME (maybe a pilot from an airforce) can help massively with the "feeling" and principles of the aircraft (even not revealing any secrets).

A wonderful 3D model ... hey ... what more can a modern air combat pilot ask for (including me ...)? :)

 

 

 

That is a mistery to me...

I never understood why ED didn’t do an fc3 level simulation of modern aircrafts...a sort of more realistic ace combat (like fc3 planes are much more realistic then it).

I perfectly understand why they cannot do full level version of it anyway.

An up to date version of DID ef2000 and TAW with today graphics and technology would be a perfect example of what i mean

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  • 3 weeks later...

The earlier Tranche of aircraft (Tranche is similar to 'Block') used a mechanical pulse-doppler radar - Captor or Captive or some such. Fancy acronym for something. Too lazy to google it right now. So a Tranche 1 aircraft is likely the only version we'd ever get to see in DCS if Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain or the UK were courteous enough to provide technical data. I believe Tranche 1 aircraft are being, or have been, phased out of service either by being replaced by newer Tranche 3/4 aircraft or by being upgraded to Tranche 2 or better. I'm not even sure what weapons systems the older Tranche aircraft used - Skyflash? AIM-120? I know they use ASRAAM and IRIS-T now, but did they use AIM-9 beforehand?

 

I'd like to see the UK air roster fleshed out a bit more (and the French, while we're at it), so anything the RAF uses would be more than welcome - even if it just AI to begin with - however I think it'd be much more likely we'll see an RAF/RN Phantom or a Tornado ADV in DCS before we ever see a Typhoon.

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This is the like the 20th thread I have seen started about the Eurofighter typhoon. Like others have stated if an aircraft is still in service its a no go until it has been retired and its systems have been declassified. And that is for it to just be considered. See this announcement about the OH-58D Kiowa to read more about what it takes to bring a new module to DCS.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2019-11-29_Kiowa_Announced/

 

Sorry to say this, but that's just not true. Look at the A-10C, F-16C and F/A-18C. All of them are still in service, even in the US. :huh: And how come VEAO had a licence to produce an early version of the Typhoon? Just don't spread false informations, please.

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The difference between A10/F16/F18 and the typoon, is that the MOD play their cards super close to their chest. So whilst contemporary US fighters do exist, it is not surprising seeing how the US government release everything to the public domain.

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Sorry to say this, but that's just not true. Look at the A-10C, F-16C and F/A-18C. All of them are still in service, even in the US. :huh: And how come VEAO had a licence to produce an early version of the Typhoon? Just don't spread false informations, please.

VEAo had a special contract with the british MoD, that even granted them access to some of the classified documentations of the Typhoon. IIRC the reason for this was that they were also working on some Typhoon training software for the RAF.

 

But yes, you're right in general. The fact itself, that an aircraft is still in active service, doesn't mean that it's impossible to do for DCS. That depends on far more detailed circumstances.

 

 

The difference between A10/F16/F18 and the typoon, is that the MOD play their cards super close to their chest. So whilst contemporary US fighters do exist, it is not surprising seeing how the US government release everything to the public domain.

"The MoD"? You are aware, that the UK isn't the only Typhoon country?

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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VEAO had a special contract with the british MoD, that even granted them access to some of the classified documentations of the Typhoon. IIRC the reason for this was that they were also working on some Typhoon training software for the RAF.
Yep, IIRC it was for a tranche 1 aircraft (don't know what block), essentially the first production variant with limited capability even compared to tranche 2 let alone tranche 3.

 

But yes, you're right in general. The fact itself, that an aircraft is still in active service, doesn't mean that it's impossible to do for DCS. That depends on far more detailed circumstances.

 

The simple question is this: Can we obtain the information necessary to simulate this aircraft to a certain standard, from a public source? With the F-16C Block 50 and the F/A-18C Lot 20 you can, the information is out there for developers to legally obtain (I imagine with some restrictions, but then that's reflected in the oversimplified implementation of certain systems - case study 1: IFF). This is the case for essentially every single aircraft in DCS regardless of in-service status.

 

The Typhoon is a different game if we cannot obtain information necessary to simulate the aircraft to a set standard, something that seems pretty damn likely.

 

"The[/b] MoD"? You are aware, that the UK isn't the only Typhoon country?

 

Absolutely correct, however the Typhoon has a multinational origin with an agreed partnership, to get hold of documentation that isn't publicly available I'm going to take a guess that it'll require permissions from each partner (UK, Germany, Italy and Spain). Of course I could easily be mistaken.

 

The long and the short of it is access to necessary documentation is what dictates feasibility, the fact that something is in-service may not strictly be relevant but it may have implications on what exactly is publicly available, the same applies to what and what isn't classified - it's not necessarily a bar if the necessary information can be obtained. However, a classified system is less likely to have relevant and necessary documentation publicly available - they both have indirect consequences, it all depends on what is available.

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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