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Flight model updates?


Ala12Rv-watermanpc

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IIRC, it was said that the hornet was getting some FM improvements as well as the famous inverted ground effect fix in december, which at the same time was planned for about the last summer time, but there hasn't been such update as far as I know (and ground effect is still broken) so I would like to know if this is still planned and if possible an estimate date for it.

 

thanks!

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:music_whistling: Curious when the Negative static stability will be corrected to Neutral static stability :helpsmilie:

 

I was told it was reported by Wags almost a year ago

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we need some damage modeling with G overstress so people stop pulling on that G limiter override lever.

 

The whole point of that lever is to out outmaneuver a threat. To my knowledge its working fine.

 

Pilot G limits on the other hand need looking at.

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The whole point of that lever is to out outmaneuver a threat. To my knowledge its working fine.

 

 

 

Pilot G limits on the other hand need looking at.

In urgent cases yes, but it risks damaging the plane. People, including me abuse of it unpunished

 

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In urgent cases yes, but it risks damaging the plane. People, including me abuse of it unpunished

It was my understanding that these effects were of a long term nature rather than an immediate one. There's currently no practical way to model such things in DCS.

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The G-Limiter is there to reduce the amount of fatigue on the airframe and not the wings or stores parting the aircraft. On most aircraft there are no G-Limiters, however if you over stress and airframe it does need an inspection and that upsets the crew chief and you will have to buy him lots of beer.

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It was my understanding that these effects were of a long term nature rather than an immediate one. There's currently no practical way to model such things in DCS.

 

Its not so much the aircraft, as they are designed to take the stress of 10+g, its the loadouts that had a problem with G loading, TGP are extremely bad for being over G'd by pilots.

 

However to break the wings of a F/a18 you need to be pulling some serious G or have a heavy loadout and being stupid.

 

https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/dogfighting-in-an-fa-18-hornet/

 

Linked is an interesting read.

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Ground effect is not inverted.

 

Then why do I get instantly sucked to the ground when flying over the runway when other planes do the opposite?

 

The poorly tuned yaw CAS need some love. Tired of the shimmy.

 

Yes, the yaw fcs seems odd at times, it will enter in a really bad resonance at times, specially when mixed with sudden pitch changes, it gets really extreme sometimes.

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Then why do I get instantly sucked to the ground when flying over the runway when other planes do the opposite?

Are you really getting sucked down, or is it more of a sudden pitch down. Pitch down could be caused by the ground effect hitting harder on the horizontal stabs. It's a question of stab position on teh fuselage and landing AoA.

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Are you really getting sucked down, or is it more of a sudden pitch down. Pitch down could be caused by the ground effect hitting harder on the horizontal stabs. It's a question of stab position on teh fuselage and landing AoA.

 

I wonder if an uncommanded pitchdown like this would be countered by pitch CAS. Yea I know nobody flies that low in UA mode at any speed... but still.:)

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That's a good question.

 

Currently, there's mild pitch down moment bellow ~20ft which is roughly consistent with aircraft geometry and classic flight controls.

 

EDIT: Apparently, in game the effect is stronger over land than over sea. Maybe pitch down moment over land is stronger than it needs to be.

 

Understatement of the year! lol

 

Ok so its actually circa 50 feet and at speed their seems to be an exponential effect. Current FM pitches down into the deck and needs review.

 

Interesting that you mention 20 feet, that is actually in keeping with what it should be (re 1/2 wingspan) although not a sudden end to the effect above that.

 

The reality is that the opposite to some extent is true you get a ground buffer, some aircraft that have a high wing loading can actually ride this cushion trimmed out with zero pilot input and its actually quite stable at extreme low level.

 

The model does need looking at , should not be sucked in at 50 feet, and if ED are attempting to model ground effect then i suggest that's almost impossible with current Hardware as it very much depends on the surface your flying over - trees for example or deep bush absorb more than hard surfaces such as water or deserts. Also lastly and on a sidenote IRL you actually require less thrust to maintain the same groundspeed when flying with ground effect, note that the DCS F18 there is no speed increase with the same thrust which should occur.

 

I think the simple answer on this one is purely to trim it back to 20 feet, remove the pitch down and reduce the drag coefficient at this altitude - or don't model it at all. Better to not model than to model it incorrectly.


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thanks for linking these post, greatly appreciated...will paste what Wags said about all this:

 

"Much of the team is now focused on big updates for the Hornet! This entails Track While Scan radar mode, AACQ, SPOT, new targeting pod features, improvements to the flight dynamics (like ground effect issue), and others. December should be a great month for the Hornet.

 

Thank you for your patience."

 

sooo...any news regarding these improvements?

 

thanks!

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The whole point of that lever is to out outmaneuver a threat. To my knowledge its working fine.

 

Pilot G limits on the other hand need looking at.

 

No the point of the override is there in case you're hurtling towards the ground and need that extra 33% G to survive, its not meant for dogfights as both Lex and Mover have stated multiple times in similar discussions, it could very well end up doing bad things in the real jet.

 

(I will try and put this to bed)

 

The hang up with all of this is the perception that over G-ing the aircraft is not that big a deal ... "whats wrong with a little extra G if it allows XYZ, bad things won't happen to me as a result (probably)" ... trying to down play its damaging effects through mental gymnastics.....I am a Functional Check Pilot and licensed aircraft mechanic, never have i ever heard an engineer tell me "itsss fiinnnnnnneee, launch it" from an over G. The reality is quite the opposite. I would never put my butt in an over G-ed aircraft that didn't have the mecs crawl around inspecting it like it was carrying the plague first.

 

The simple answer is it is one of the big taboos in aviation. Once the aircraft is over G-ed it is an "unknown". It is probably bent/altered/(insert your semantics to describe "change" here) in a way that you have no idea how it will effect the predictably of the aircrafts performance. You are literaly a test pilot on a numerically new "aircraft". You have no idea if it will stall at the same alpha, you have no idea if the oil system is scavaging properly and the jet can remain inverted flight for the 15 secconds it is supposed to be able to before it ruins an eng bearing, you have no idea if the fuel will transfer properly and keep the aircraft with in CG, you have literally no idea if (insert the most creative failure you can think of here). You dont know, and neither do the engineers untill the plane is on deck, tourn a part and inspected. And that is what they do for over speeds and over Gs, they literally tear things apart and inspect them because you simply can not trust the plane to perform as it is intended to.

 

We have already talked about the myriad of ways over G-ing the aircraft can be greatly compounded in the BFM environment as well.

 

If you over G the aircraft during an engagement , you are risking changing your corner speed, your climb performance, roll rates, low speed stability, the list goes on. You can easly give your adversary the performance advantage once you over G your aircraft. This is why we don't train to over G an aircraft, becase all the performance numbers we spend hundreds of hours memorizing so we can use them in the jet, become moot after an over G becausewe just dont know their accuracy anymore.

 

This is why failure modes are so important in this game. If a gamer decides to gamble thinking "ya, i can pull a little more to get the shot" suddenly the oil scavenge pump isn't working correctly and the next time he rolls inverted the engine seezes. Or the next time you transition to a 1 circle and use the flaps in the 14 it wraps off and turtles on its back stalled because one of the slats didn't drop. Or you run out of fuel driving back home becase the fuel won't transfer properly. You simply have no idea how the plane will fly now.

 

So yes, make the paddle switch work correctly, just know that "correctly " also means the correct consequences for using it as well. Benefits only is not "correct ".

 

This was something else that made the 18 great to BFM, you didn't have to worry as much about over G as in other aircraft. In any other aircraft without a G limiter you literally have to scan the accelerometer as you fight to make sure you don't over G, PITA.

 

I know this comunity is big into realism, simply understand you are ushering in a very "arcade" pholosophy by not giving the consequence of over G the proper attention. BFM and Gs go hand and hand, in that context you can't have a good flight model with out a good G damage model. And if one aircraft does not "damage " properly relitive to another, it would be an unfair (and unrealistic) advantage/disadvantage.

 

I will leave it at that. Hope the conversation was worth it for some.

(EDIT that was written in in somewhat sarcastic humor, please no one take offense, nothing was meant personal). )

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we need some damage modeling with G overstress so people stop pulling on that G limiter override lever.

 

the lever was there for the threat, in BFM, enemy is the threat. don`t see any problem o people using it. if they use that often, end result will be a G-loc for them.

 

and if a 10G pull breaks up the aircraft, probably that aircraft will not be put into combat pilots hand.

 

ever heared D-hose`s 12G gun break in F14 ? :smilewink:

only damage on that fight was the rio`s neck.

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the lever was there for the threat, in BFM, enemy is the threat. don`t see any problem o people using it. if they use that often, end result will be a G-loc for them.

 

 

 

and if a 10G pull breaks up the aircraft, probably that aircraft will not be put into combat pilots hand.

 

 

 

ever heared D-hose`s 12G gun break in F14 ? :smilewink:

 

only damage on that fight was the rio`s neck.

I'm not talking about evading missiles or gun shots but using the lever repeatedly to outturn the enemy.

 

And no I didn't hear about that F14 story and it doesn't sound legit. 12g breaks a lot of systems in the Tomcat. Try it.

 

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