Ground Handling

[GrislyAccord]

I seem to remember reading accounts of what a pleasure the Spitfire was to fly. But so far, I find it to be the most unpleasant plane I've ever flown in over 20 years of flightsimming.

 

Taxi, takeoff and landing are a freaking nightmare in the thing, and it prevents me from flying it at all. Was it really this awful?

 

I own the A2A Accu-sim version of the plane, and granted I haven't flown it in several years, but I don't remember it being this unpleasant. In fact, I rather enjoyed it.

 

Is this ground handling accurate?

 

It's flight characteristics are also kind of meh. The only thing that seems to be enjoyable in it is low level reconnaissance flying--it's turn radius and slow speed do allow you to circle a single farm or building or vehicle.

[Magic Zach]

Yes the handling (on hard surfaces and in flight) is accurate. The Spitfire gave a lot of input to the pilot through the seat of the pants feel, and depended on it more than some other aircraft. Unfortunately we dont have this in a simulator. The closest you can get is a Gametrix Jetseat. If you want to put money and creativity in, you can also try creating those rotating setups, where the player's chair is shaken, shifted and rotated.

[Hunter Joker]

What's exactly the problem? Of all warbirds the Spit is one of the easiest to take off and landing... Ground handling You are correct, is a bit difficult....

 

Inviato dal mio BLA-L09 utilizzando Tapatalk

[DD_Fenrir]

The biggest issue here is trying to get your hardware set-up properly using the axis curve editor in the control bindings.

 

Bear in mind the full scale Spitfire control column was some ~900 mm from it's pivot point to the top of the stick; actual test flight data shows that to reach critical AoA from trim neutral required only 3/4" of stick displacement - that's 19.5mm; this equates to ~1.2°.

 

That is tiny and when scaled down to the 15-20cm moment arm of a typical desktop joystick that results in a required stick displacement to stall the plane of only 3-4mm.

 

This makes it very very difficult to fly.

 

The trick is to adjust your curves so that it gives you a stick displacement more analagous to the real thing.

 

I have a MSFFB2 and these are my custom control curves:

 

0 2 4 6 8 12 16 22 30 50 100

 

Please see my video for further info:

 

 

 

As for ground handling what are you using to actuate your wheel brakes?

[zcrazyx]

spitfire has always been known for being rough on the ground right up until flight, its one of the hardest aircraft to do a nice take off and landing in on the sim. having the right controls, practice and techniques helps to aliviate these factors.

 

i see many instances of people whacking throttle on and veering off then crashing or landing with full rpm which drastically causes the flare to be much shorter, then there is the actual techniques of landing, a lot of people seem to 3 point it where as in every irl video i have seen they touch down mains first with the tail slightly low, then stick sligtly forwards to keep it planted and to bleed enough speed to then hold the stick back without risk of taking off again.

[GrislyAccord]

The biggest issue here is trying to get your hardware set-up properly using the axis curve editor in the control bindings.

 

Bear in mind the full scale Spitfire control column was some ~900 mm from it's pivot point to the top of the stick; actual test flight data shows that to reach critical AoA from trim neutral required only 3/4" of stick displacement - that's 19.5mm; this equates to ~1.2°.

 

That is tiny and when scaled down to the 15-20cm moment arm of a typical desktop joystick that results in a required stick displacement to stall the plane of only 3-4mm.

 

This makes it very very difficult to fly.

 

The trick is to adjust your curves so that it gives you a stick displacement more analagous to the real thing.

 

I have a MSFFB2 and these are my custom control curves:

 

0 2 4 6 8 12 16 22 30 50 100

 

Please see my video for further info:

 

 

 

As for ground handling what are you using to actuate your wheel brakes?

 

Thanks. I'll try your custom curve settings when I get a chance. Although, the Spit is one of the few DCS planes I have applied any curve to. I think I have it set at 20 right now on my CH Fighterstick. It was way too sensitive without it, but then too much seemed to affect the responsiveness, which is the only thing going for this bird, in my estimation.

 

As for the wheel brakes, I've tried the slider on the fighterstick, and a button. But right now I've cheated a little bit and set both of the toe brakes on my rudder pedals as the brake levers.

[GrislyAccord]

spitfire has always been known for being rough on the ground right up until flight, its one of the hardest aircraft to do a nice take off and landing in on the sim. having the right controls, practice and techniques helps to aliviate these factors.

 

i see many instances of people whacking throttle on and veering off then crashing or landing with full rpm which drastically causes the flare to be much shorter, then there is the actual techniques of landing, a lot of people seem to 3 point it where as in every irl video i have seen they touch down mains first with the tail slightly low, then stick sligtly forwards to keep it planted and to bleed enough speed to then hold the stick back without risk of taking off again.

 

 

Like I said, I've been flightsimming (and real world flying) for a long time now, and don't tend to jam the throttle around. Granted, I'm just coming off a few year hiatus, so my skills are a little rusty, and I just acquired the CH Products Pro throttle which is, admittedly, a bit squirrelly (going to replace it as soon as I can), but I don't have the same frustration with the Mustang. It is very easy to taxi and take off (I know, wider wheelbase and steerable tailwheel, etc.) and a genuine pleasure to fly.

 

In the Spit, just taxiing to the run-up area takes two and a half hours practically. Otherwise I'll run off the taxiway.

 

The worst part is I was all geared up to get the I-16 (it's actually my favorite plane in Il-2 GB right now, despite it's faults, and the DCS version looks spectacular) but since I started flying online again, I thought it'd be better for now to get something that could compete in a turn fight with the 109. The Mustang, for all its advantages, certainly isn't that. So I got the Spit instead. And have regretted it ever since.

[DeepDrummer]

I use a slider at times such as when landing. Half brakes allows me to two point it pretty nicely but it sure takes practice with how much to pull back at that time so I don't nose over. Two point landings are not necessary at all but fun when mastered. I did not do near as well when I had my brakes on the pedals.

When taxiing One has to just stab the brakes while deflecting the pedals. The deflection of the pedals routes the braking pressure to the side that the pedal is pressed so you turn that way.

Using a button, Deflect pedal, stab. Deflect pedal, stab. If one holds the button too long, it will nose over as the brakes gradually and quickly to full application.

Practice just taxiing lots.

It took me months to be able to land 10 out of 10 times in a row.

I had to be the worlds worst Spitfire taxing, takeoff and landing person.

I have been simming since 1987 or there about. Still that Spitfire was tough.

Now, it is usually the Spitfire that I climb into.

I no longer use curves at all although I use an extension on my stick.

After years of practice, I can't remember missing a landing in the last year or so.

It is a beautiful thing.

[GrislyAccord]

I use a slider at times such as when landing. Half brakes allows me to two point it pretty nicely but it sure takes practice with how much to pull back at that time so I don't nose over. Two point landings are not necessary at all but fun when mastered. I did not do near as well when I had my brakes on the pedals.

When taxiing One has to just stab the brakes while deflecting the pedals. The deflection of the pedals routes the braking pressure to the side that the pedal is pressed so you turn that way.

Using a button, Deflect pedal, stab. Deflect pedal, stab. If one holds the button too long, it will nose over as the brakes gradually and quickly to full application.

Practice just taxiing lots.

It took me months to be able to land 10 out of 10 times in a row.

I had to be the worlds worst Spitfire taxing, takeoff and landing person.

I have been simming since 1987 or there about. Still that Spitfire was tough.

Now, it is usually the Spitfire that I climb into.

I no longer use curves at all although I use an extension on my stick.

After years of practice, I can't remember missing a landing in the last year or so.

It is a beautiful thing.

 

I use a button occasionally, too. On the Mig-15, it's all I use, but then that's got a nice wide wheelbase and tricycle gear, and no torque, so I can taxi that thing like a champ. Also, it's a helluva lot of fun to fly. Probably my favorite, right now.

 

I am trying like hell to like the Spit, but so far there is just so much I don't like about it. Like just sitting in it. It's like being in the bottom of an aluminum canoe with a sloppy outboard motor poorly attached to one end...off center, of course, to optimize it's poor steering. Haha. The view through the sight even leaves a lot to be desired, being mostly nose. And it's so excruciatingly slow. Good for slow Sunday afternoon fly-in at a regional airport, not so great for chasing down German aircraft. The cannon is nice, but the ammo capacity lackluster at best.

 

Lol.

 

Like I said tho, I really WANNA love it. It's certainly a beautiful bird. Err, at least the elliptical wing version. The clipped wing, not so much.

 

Of course, when my beloved Thunderbolt comes out, won't.matter much anyway.

 

And then I heard tell there's a Zero in the works!

[Art-J]

I don't use analog device for braking either, paddle switch on my Warthog stick does the job. As DeepDrummer pointed, tapping it for turns rather than keeping it pressed is enough for pretty effortless control on the ground, as long as one keeps the taxiing speed low and reacts with inputs "ahead" of the airplane.

 

All other problems with the Spit come, in my opinion, from its extreme rudder and elevator sensitivity. The stick and pedals displacement vs controls movement is modelled closer to real life here than in other sims, but that does make using short joysticks more challenging.

 

That being said, when one gets used to this sensitivity, and adjusts his inputs accordingly, the Spit becomes a very nice plane to operate actually. Although I struggled with it at first, I now rate it the second easiest warbirds to takeoff and land in DCS (after Mustang). Don't own the I-16 though.

[grafspee]

Take off in Spit is super easy +12lbs in quick throttle move and you are rolling :)

Absolutely don't try take off with reduced power because you are no longer taking off, you are fast taxing and this is almost uncontrollable in spit.

Advantage of +12lbs take off is that before you realize what is going on, you are already in the air.

Landing is easy the tough part is bring Spit in to stop after touch down but it is manageable. Use brakes combined with rudder to keep is straight.

Edited January 17, 2020 by grafspee

[Magic Zach]

+8lbs is actually acceptable for takeoff as well.

The Spitfire is actually really controllable, so long as you have wind moving past the rudder.

[grafspee]

+8lbs is actually acceptable for takeoff as well.

The Spitfire is actually really controllable, so long as you have wind moving past the rudder.

 

Yes taxing or take off down wind will make things harder.

[zcrazyx]

my advice would be to add slight deadzone and saturation to the curves if you use hotas without extender, also as others have pointed out tapping the brakes will help with taxiing, if you choose to taxi at walking pace then traditional tailwheel techniques will help to keep her in check and easily controllable, if you prefer to not use as much brakes it might be worth trying to taxi slighty faster then walking pace, it should give you more rudder authority however it is more dangerous if you let it get away.

[Richard Dastardly]

The real thing was horrible on the ground too, by many accounts... could very easily overheat it ( either oil or water ) taxiing in a crosswind/downwind, let alone any issues with the taxi process.

 

Seems ok to take off, ok to land unless there's a crosswind element. I don't think I've managed a crosswind landing without scraping a wingtip yet. If any aircraft needs a force-feedback seat it's possibly this one.

[Tempest]

LOL I’m enjoying this string. I can identify with the sentiment..I wanted to throw my joystick against the wall with the IL2 BoS Spit landing ground loop. But lurked the forums...looked at the YouTubes and damned the game developers. I conquered that problem (keep 18% thrust to maintain rudder authority.)

 

You’ll get there. Gonna pickup the DCS Spit one day...sure I will nail the landings after multiple crack ups LOL

Edited January 19, 2020 by Tempest

[JIMJAM]

One of my first paying jobs as a pilot was towing banners in Myrtle Beach with Cubs. The strip was parallel to the intercoastal waterway and the ocean so there was always a nasty crosswind and if/when you gunned it and had the slightest of hesitations, there was a good chance you were ending up in the drink. All that said....

YES, I find the Spit to be one tricky bird made worse when trying to go up against the ufo AI which planes and pilots do not abide by the same rules us earthlings do. The 109 is a close second and are "fly the engine" types and want to swap ends. Basically make the bird do what you want it to do and if she complains do it a little smoother. TM/Hog Hotas all around/ I stared at the TM pedals for months and could not justify $500 but eventually gave in. I can honestly say they are what the Warthog stick added to immersion and precision to the rudder. Makes flying the warbirds much more "pleasant".

[Al-Azraq]

Map the brake to an axis. I did mapped it to my MFG toe brakes and it improved a lot my ground handling. I also have the habit of using rudder and brake at the same time (this comes from IL2 and the 109) so I got used to it very fast.

[Oldahpilot]

Tail draggers

 

The spitfire being a tail dragger makes it very unforgiving on the ground, the main wheel undercarriage doesn't help.

 

I went through basic fixed wing training with the British Army Air Corps when we had the Chipmunk, it really is a miniature spit! Starting was with a cartridge starter.

 

There's a reason tail draggers are an add on rating to normal PPL, they're really twitchy. Taxiing is best done by weaving and looking out left and right of the nose to clear the path ahead, so using taxiways aren't easy, best taxiing across the grass and using a grass runway. Landing on Tarmac is a recipe for a ground loop in inexperienced hands .

 

The main points during take off being, be alert to the sudden swinging action as the throttle is advanced, be prepared for a boot full of rudder to counteract torque effect. I think some also forget that you don't fly the aircraft off the runway from all three wheels, once you've got enough airspeed push the nose forward to get the tailwheel off the ground, continue to take off speed and then pull back on the stick to lift off. Similarly when landing, touchdown on the main wheels and then when slow enough pressure back on the stick to get the tail down.

 

While taxiing keep the stick back to stick the tailwheel to the ground, use aileron to counteract wind trying to lift the wing. Keep looking at references far enough away from the aircraft to pick up early changes in direction.

[Baldrick33]

I am not a fan of using a digital controller (warthog paddle) and stabbing the brakes so I am using a Saitek throttle quadrant mounted on the right and use one of the levers as a brake. I find it much more controllable with an analog control and can taxi much more smoothly now!

[Squiffy]

Just got the Spit this weekend. Wanted it for a while. Am I missing something? I see only one axis for wheel brakes (analog) in the control options. How do I get differential braking with both my toe brakes on the CH rudder pedals?

[Magic Zach]

Just got the Spit this weekend. Wanted it for a while. Am I missing something? I see only one axis for wheel brakes (analog) in the control options. How do I get differential braking with both my toe brakes on the CH rudder pedals?

You don't. If you look in the cockpit when you move the brake, you see it's just one lever. Use that with left and right rudder direction

[Squiffy]

Oh interesting. So I should be able to script the w key to both axes and use with deflexion. Thanks! I tried to fire up CH Control Manager but it crashes and I don't think is Win10 compatible. Maybe a stick button is the best, especially to avoid accidental toe movement? Like nose wheel steering on the Sabre?

 

I'm curious, did the later Spit have only one brake lever and nothing on the pedal toes? I can understand parking brake but really? Maybe it's a legacy of the old air frame. You know, fixed wooden prop and all ;)

[DD_Fenrir]

[Squiffy]

Nice! I managed to taxi back after a complete rubbish landing scraping wingtips and prop, and slamming the tail wheel.

 

I did notice that DCS does allow for and Increase and Decrease key so I tried again with CH Control Manager. After deleting the pedals by mistake, I was able to get it recognized again with a reboot. the manager was working so I made a quick 3 repeat for the increase and decrease keys but it may not have been enough. I think DCS does see the repeat on hold, which is why stabbing works and stomping bends the prop. I'll up the repeat a bit and see if I can get it to work on the toe brakes. I suppose this is not correct but I can go back to the stick lever (B4?) like a nose wheel steering key.