Any BVR tactics against AI Fighters ?

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Currently, 120 only goes ballistic if you lose the lock before the missile goes pitbull

This bug is still unaddressed. The 120s will not guide themselves. And ARH missiles always require support before they go active even if they’re working properly

 

[SCPanda]

15 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

This bug is still unaddressed. The 120s will not guide themselves. And ARH missiles always require support before they go active even if they’re working properly

 

On 12/28/2020 at 1:08 AM, BIGNEWY said:

In the meantime, we'd advise properly supporting the missile until it goes active.

 

Yeah, I know this bug, but BIGNEWY said until the missile goes active, which means you don't have to maintain lock until the last second the missile hits the target. Once the missile goes active and turns on its radar to track the target (aka pitbull), you can turn away and break the lock, the missile WILL guide itself. I have gotten many kills with 120s in DCS when I need to break the lock to perform defensive maneuvers after my missiles go pitbull. IDK why you think you have to guide the missile all the way through. You just don't have to. 

 

Of course, sometimes the missile do miss but it's probably due to the target performing defensive maneuvers (especially notching) or your firing solution is poor. Firing 120s at lower altitude, slower speed, longer range will result in lower PK. 

 

Oh btw, 120s realistically do not always require support before they go active, even if you dropped the lock before pitbull, the missile will attempt to fly to the last known intercepting point of the target and use its homing radar to search the target. However, DCS 120s does not do that. THIS is the bug ED is trying to fix. 

[Nealius]

8 minutes ago, SCPanda said:

IDK why you think you have to guide the missile all the way through. You just don't have to. 

 

He doesn't. He literally said "until active." The problem is that needing to support the missile until MPRF active (Pitbull) with the current performance we have in DCS means you cannot support the missile to Pitbull, Pump, then reengage while staying outside of MAR or staying BVR. You'll end up WVR when you reengage. We need both HPRF (Husky) and this guidance issue to be fixed for proper BVR tactics where we can support our missiles, Pump, and reengage while staying BVR.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Nealius

[SharpeXB]

31 minutes ago, SCPanda said:

Yeah, I know this bug, but BIGNEWY said until the missile goes active

He might be missing the point. I posted a bunch of tracks to that thread. If you break lock after the missile goes active, they won’t guide at all on their own. They simply go wild. Perhaps only 1 out of 20 will hit. The AIM-7 isn’t much better. 

[SCPanda]

46 minutes ago, Nealius said:

 

He doesn't. He literally said "until active." 

 

Nope. He thinks missile will not guide themselves if you break the lock after pitbull. Please read his newest post. 

 

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

He might be missing the point. I posted a bunch of tracks to that thread. If you break lock after the missile goes active, they won’t guide at all on their own. They simply go wild. Perhaps only 1 out of 20 will hit. The AIM-7 isn’t much better. 

Sharpe, I see you were shooting 120Bs, and your post was all the way back in Jan. 

 

First, 120B is not really good and I advise carrying 120Cs during your gameplay. 120Bs lacks the energy the 120Cs have, and I also believe 120Cs are more notch and chaff resistant so basically better tracking ability. Second, I can't remember how missiles were performing in Jan, but in the current state (both stable and open beta version), I can assure you that 120Cs will guide themselves if you break lock after pitbull. I never use 120Bs so I can't say for sure.

 

Oh Sharpe, another thing you should account for is how the target is trying to defend your missile. In DCS, AIs will always try to notch and chaff your ARH and higher difficulty AIs can almost always achieve a perfect notch. If the target notches your missile, your missile will go ballistic since it cannot track the notching target. 

 

Also, I remember ED improved 120C's notch and chaff resistance in a patch probably a month ago, so it's much better now. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by SCPanda

[Jenson]

I recalled 120C can be shot beyond 35nm at 40k feet, 1 mach speed. 

[SharpeXB]

8 hours ago, SCPanda said:

First, 120B is not really good and I advise carrying 120Cs during your gameplay

Sure if I have the choice I’d carry Cs. This is the BVR 8vs8 mission which has a set loadout. Even though the B is a less capable missile a 1/20 Pk is really poor. And within Rne I think I only got 6/20

For me it’s not so much bug reporting, honestly they seem even worse now, this just leads me to the conclusion not to engage the AI BVR. There’s no point. Wait until you’re within visual where the missile will have a short flight time which doesn’t leave you vulnerable and has a high Pk

 

It would be interesting too see people’s attempt at the BVR 8v8 quick mission. 

[SCPanda]

On 7/23/2021 at 8:49 PM, SharpeXB said:

Sure if I have the choice I’d carry Cs. This is the BVR 8vs8 mission which has a set loadout. Even though the B is a less capable missile a 1/20 Pk is really poor. And within Rne I think I only got 6/20

For me it’s not so much bug reporting, honestly they seem even worse now, this just leads me to the conclusion not to engage the AI BVR. There’s no point. Wait until you’re within visual where the missile will have a short flight time which doesn’t leave you vulnerable and has a high Pk

 

It would be interesting too see people’s attempt at the BVR 8v8 quick mission. 

Interesting. I will try to give it a go. However, I mainly fly the F-16, I haven't been in the Hornet for awhile so I forgot how to operate the jet in BVR lol. 

 

However, in the "Figher Intercept" instant action mission of the F-16, I can get 100% of kill chance almost every time (the mission gives you 120Cs). The tips I can offer are always go full burner right after mission starts and go for a 5-10 degree climb. You if you can get a launch parameter of: above mach 1.2, above 30k ft, about 30nm range(yes you don't need to fire in close range, just remember to support the missiles until active), 120C usually will get you guaranteed kills in that mission. BTW, I do TWS shots since there is a group of 2 bandits. 

 

Oh another thing I would like to point out is if you are fighting Ace level AI, like the custom mission I set up for my own practice (me in F-16 vs a JF-17, 50 miles starting range, 20k spawn altitude), I always ended up trading Fox 3s with the AI since both the AI and me can defend well. It usually takes the last Fox 3 (carrying 4) for me to get the kill (or be killed by the AI) since after few rounds we will be in 10 miles. Sometimes it could also ends up with us firing Fox 2s or even go into a merge. So basically my point is: Ace level AI can really defend well (even better than SOME human pilots in PVP severs). 

Edited July 26, 2021 by SCPanda

[Nahemoth]

3 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Interesting. I will try to give it a go. However, I mainly fly the F-16, I haven't been in the Hornet for awhile so I forgot how to operate the jet in BVR lol. 

 

However, in the "Figher Intercept" instant action mission of the F-16, I can get 100% of kill chance almost every time (the mission gives you 120Cs). The tips I can offer are always go full burner right after mission starts and go for a 5-10 degree climb. You if you can get a launch parameter of: above mach 1.2, above 30k ft, about 30nm range(yes you don't need to fire in close range, just remember to support the missiles until active), 120C usually will get you guaranteed kills in that mission. BTW, I do TWS shots since there is a group of 2 bandits. 

 

Oh another thing I would like to point out is if you are fighting Ace level AI, like the custom mission I set up for my own practice (me in F-16 vs a JF-17, 50 miles starting range, 20k spawn altitude), I always ended up trading Fox 3s with the AI since both the AI and me can defend well. It usually takes the last Fox 3 (carrying 4) for me to get the kill (or be killed by the AI) since after few rounds we will be in 10 miles. Sometimes it could also ends up with us firing Fox 2s or even go into a merge. So basically my point is: Ace level AI can really defend well (even better than SOME human pilots in PVP severs). 

 

I feel that the F-16 radar behaves differently from the Hornet one. So right now the BVR is much harder with the Hornet. I don't know if there are plans for updating the radar from the Viper...

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, SCPanda said:

However, in the "Figher Intercept" instant action mission of the F-16, I can get 100% of kill chance almost every time (the mission gives you 120Cs). The tips I can offer are always go full burner right after mission starts and go for a 5-10 degree climb. You if you can get a launch parameter of: above mach 1.2, above 30k ft, about 30nm range(yes you don't need to fire in close range, just remember to support the missiles until active), 120C usually will get you guaranteed kills in that mission. BTW, I do TWS shots since there is a group of 2 bandits. 

These BVR tactics always result in seeing my plane explode in 3rd person. And the 120Bs are rather useless. Another quick mission Airbase Defense in Syria is particularly challenging. It’s a scramble so the enemy waves have a height advantage. Even after climbing to engage BVR seems like the wrong tactic. It’s hard to get or maintain a TWS lock long enough to launch let alone track the missile at all, they constantly get “lost”. The enemy gets ETs which are completely brutal since they give no warning, can’t be notched etc. 

All in all modern air combat seems like random death kinda like the rest of war. Certainly taking on waves of the enemy video game style is not survivable. 

[Kempleja]

I think that in general it is a waste of a missile to launch a missile against a fighter from 30 nm. Sometimes I also do it for fun and variety, but it is more like a half court shot in basketball, sometimes it might go in, but you should not really count on it. A higher probability shot against a fighter is below 15 nm for AMRAAM and maybe around 10 nm for Sparrow.

[Bunny Clark]

On 7/23/2021 at 7:49 AM, SharpeXB said:

It would be interesting too see people’s attempt at the BVR 8v8 quick mission. 

Here's my go at it. Bit rough as I haven't flown the Hornet in a while, and I end up in a 1v1 guns only fight that I win by running the MiG out of fuel 

 

This mission is rough because of the rather silly 2x AIM-120B 4x AIM-7 loadout and the massive number of friendly AIs that make no effort to coordinate anything. So rather than being some kind of coordinated BVR engagement, it just turns into a massive furball with missiles. None of the friendlies survived, just me. 

Hornet 8v8.trk

[Tree_Beard]

10 hours ago, Kempleja said:

I think that in general it is a waste of a missile to launch a missile against a fighter from 30 nm. Sometimes I also do it for fun and variety, but it is more like a half court shot in basketball, sometimes it might go in, but you should not really count on it. A higher probability shot against a fighter is below 15 nm for AMRAAM and maybe around 10 nm for Sparrow.

 

I disagree. You can definitely kill an AI bandit at that range pretty often with a 120C if both of you are high and fast. Much more often than you'd expect a half court shot to go in, to use the bball analogy. Especially firing TWS, because they now won't even try to defend until the missile goes active and they get the RWR warning. 

 

Against a human pilot, yes, your chances of getting a kill from a 30 mile launch are very low. That still isn't a wasted missile though, because you most likely launched it with the intent of putting him in a defensive posture, not assuming it will actually connect and kill him. 

[SCPanda]

2 hours ago, Tree_Beard said:

 

I disagree. You can definitely kill an AI bandit at that range pretty often with a 120C if both of you are high and fast. Much more often than you'd expect a half court shot to go in, to use the bball analogy. Especially firing TWS, because they now won't even try to defend until the missile goes active and they get the RWR warning. 

 

Against a human pilot, yes, your chances of getting a kill from a 30 mile launch are very low. That still isn't a wasted missile though, because you most likely launched it with the intent of putting him in a defensive posture, not assuming it will actually connect and kill him. 

Yep. Going high and fast is the key. Besides that, the altitude of the bandit also is an important factor that affects the pk. 30 miles (or even further) shots against high altitude bandits are very effective since missiles won't have to dive down to denser atmosphere and lose too much energy. Also, missiles at higher altitude also have more speed which gives bandits much less time to react once missiles go active. 

 

Against human pilots, I have gotten a good amount of long range kills, and most of them took place when the opponents were flying high and unaware of my TWS shots. Yes it is much less likely to get long range kills against human pilots because many people don't like to fly that high and many skilled pilots knows how to predict or avoid long range TWS shots. Also, human pilots defend more aggressively than AIs and sometimes they will do things like vertical notch which is a pretty good tactic to avoid being killed when flying high. 

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

Here's my go at it. Bit rough as I haven't flown the Hornet in a while

Well I should realize the tracks are broken so I didn’t see a gun fight. If the rest is accurate how do you avoid getting zapped by th R-27TEs? Every fight I run I’m killed within a few moments by one of those. I can’t get and decent lock on the enemy and I’m probably dead by the time my missile would arrive in any case. 

[SharpeXB]

What surprises me is going back to the M-2000 and realizing what a better A2A plane it is. It’s more agile, it’s weapons are more accurate even though you carry less they’re nearly all kill shots vs the 5% I get in the Hornet. I can actually evade shots in the Mirage vs being a missile magnet. The radar in the Hornet continually loses lock whereas the M-2000 never seems to. Go figure the M-2000 is mostly A2A instead of a true multi role aircraft. 

[Nahemoth]

Is there any good mission for training BVR skills?

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, Nahemoth said:

Is there any good mission for training BVR skills?

There’s the BVR 8v8 quick mission but it’s tough. You’re given 120Bs which aren’t very good and the enemy has ET extended range thermal missiles which are no-warning insta kills. A realistic approach to this scenario would be to try for a single kill and survive. Flying into the midst of a 16 plane furball is certain death. 

[Nahemoth]

25 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s the BVR 8v8 quick mission but it’s tough. You’re given 120Bs which aren’t very good and the enemy has ET extended range thermal missiles which are no-warning insta kills. A realistic approach to this scenario would be to try for a single kill and survive. Flying into the midst of a 16 plane furball is certain death. 

I have tried several times that mission, it is certainly one of the most difficult, and not sure if it is the best way learning.

[Exorcet]

Training missions are a good reason to learn the mission editor.

 

Start off by placing yourself in the Hornet and a single enemy in front in a low capability fighter (MiG-21, etc). Practice that situation and then change things up when you're comfortable (swap MiG-21 for MiG-23, or give the enemy a wingman, etc).

[Nahemoth]

6 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Training missions are a good reason to learn the mission editor.

 

Start off by placing yourself in the Hornet and a single enemy in front in a low capability fighter (MiG-21, etc). Practice that situation and then change things up when you're comfortable (swap MiG-21 for MiG-23, or give the enemy a wingman, etc).

 

I agree, but under my limitations implementing the training scenario. That's why I was asking for a mission for using as a "reliable" reference.

[Nahemoth]

I managed editing the 8v8 mission, using as a reference, and updating it with 120C missiles, it is much more easier!