A must see video of dogfighting in the Tomcat

[jcdata]

A lot of fights end up going slow. That's fact.

 

The numbers for the Viper are high..I wouldn't fight that those speeds. The little plane doesn't have much for fuel endurance.

 

It's great to know numbers.. but this isn't scripted. All fights are dynamic, .. stupid to stay predictable.

 

Throwing data out there is great but it isn't the last word.

 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[eatthis]

Both taken at 5000 feet, standard day.

F-16C block 50, gross weight: 28,000 pounds, drag index 38 (full A2A config)

F-14B, gross weight: 60,000 pounds, 4x AIM-7, 4x AIM-9, CADC on automatic.

 

Sources: EM-charts from HFFM manual provided by "the other sim" and official F-14B performance charts (01-F14AAP-1.1).

The Viper might not be the official documentation, but given the reputation of the flight model it's close enough to give you an idea.

 

 

The Viper's sustained rate at this altitude shows as a plateau between Mach 0.8 and 0.9 (490-550 KCAS) at 8.5G. Here it sustains slightly over 15.1 deg/s

Viper's minimum radius is 1841 feet at Mach 0.35 (210 KCAS)

Viper's max instantaneous is 19.7 deg/s at Mach 0.7 (425 KCAS) pulling 8.5G.

 

The Tomcat's sustained rate spikes between Mach 0.52 and 0.6 (315-365 KCAS), peaking at roughly 16.1 deg/s (Mach 0.56. 340 KCAS).

Tomcat's minimum radius is around 1400 feet at Mach 0.26 (160 KCAS), basically landing speed.

Tomcat's max measured instantaneous rate is an eye-watering 22 deg/s at Mach 6.5G. Note that 6.5G was it's peace-time limitation, wartime limit is up at 7.5G but there is no data for this. Instantaneous rate in the sim might therefore be higher in some circumstances.

 

The higher the fight goes, the better the Viper performs comparatively to the Tomcat in sustained rate. The Viper has the better thrust-to-weight in general.

 

 

So the takeaways here are:

 

• The Viper should keep the fight fast, prefer vertical manoeuvres to preserve energy and don't try to follow the Tomcat in horizontal bat turns.
  
• Stay fast, stay high. By whatever deity you prefer, don't let the Tomcat drag you into a low-speed scissors on the deck.
  
• Prefer 2C geometry and out-of-plane manoeuvring. Use that roll rate!
  

 

• The Tomcat should try to bleed the Viper's energy and go for a low horizontal turning fight.
  
• Don't try to beat the Viper at fast, high-G shenanigans.
  
• Use that insane lifting body.
  

 

Great post thank you

[Noctrach]

I'd be interested to see you do a guns match with him.

 

I'd probably lose. I have no difficulty admitting I'm not a very experienced Tomcat pilot. Would absolutely be up for it, sounds like fun.

The real pilots made it work without breaking their jet though and I've dueled squaddies that beat me without going for any these gimmicks, so I'm rather convinced it's possible.

 

A lot of fights end up going slow. That's fact.

 

The numbers for the Viper are high..I wouldn't fight that those speeds. The little plane doesn't have much for fuel endurance.

 

It's great to know numbers.. but this isn't scripted. All fights are dynamic, .. stupid to stay predictable.

 

Throwing data out there is great but it isn't the last word.

 

That's why at the end of the day it's about pilot skill. The numbers give you your gameplan, the pilot provides the execution.

Ignoring the numbers is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They provide you hints as to which elements of your jet you should play to and what errors you should avoid making.

This is how they brief these kinds of fights in real life and the reason these diagrams exist...

 

Not playing to your jet's strengths for the sake of staying unpredictable kinda defeats the purpose. I'd get rather thrown off by watching my adversary lawndart at 200 knots, but I'm not sure if that is the kind of "element of surprise" he should be aiming for. :P

 

About the Viper numbers, this is where it peaks. However, you can fly 400-450 KCAS (which is still fast) and only reduce your rate to 14 deg/s and as a result the pilot has to pull only 6.5-7G (doesnt matter in sim but definitely more pleasant irl) and has a speed that allows for better instantaneous turns. Again, it's about pilot execution, the numbers allow you to make up your gameplan.

 

 

It's true that most fights end up slow, that's why the Tomcat and Hornet are such insane dogfighting jets. However, you can definitely make sure you have the edge in the fight before getting there.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Noctrach

[Domestos]

So wahhdabout the manouver flaps, controlled by the DLC fwd aft? How do peoiple use them in a fight, if at all?

[S. Low]

On one hand I think it's silly to practice gun fights using tactics that will destroy your jet, and on the other hand I remember tales of phantom pilots purposely departing flight in order to flip their aircraft and get a mig off their tail.

[captain_dalan]

So wahhdabout the manouver flaps, controlled by the DLC fwd aft? How do peoiple use them in a fight, if at all?

 

The usually come online by themselves as yo pull some AoA. But you can manually drop them in anticipation as well, by using the same controls as you would on your DLC :thumbup:

[eatthis]

I had no idea we had manual manuevering flaps lol

[captain_dalan]

I had no idea we had manual manuevering flaps lol

 

yeah, as someone mentioned in another thread, you need those retracted before you drop the big ones

[HAAUK]

just curious, does anyone here feel that we are at a disadvtange flying the most "realistically modeled" aircraft in the game?

 

on top of that the tomcat doesn;t have fly by wire... etc

[eatthis]

just curious, does anyone here feel that we are at a disadvtange flying the most "realistically modeled" aircraft in the game?

 

on top of that the tomcat doesn;t have fly by wire... etc

 

I do when it comes to avionics but not the flight model.

Its hsrder to fly than fbw and will kill you if youre hamfisted or stuoid. but once you grt some feel for it then its an absolute beastt of a machine, i LOVE it

[bies]

just curious, does anyone here feel that we are at a disadvtange flying the most "realistically modeled" aircraft in the game?

 

on top of that the tomcat doesn;t have fly by wire... etc

 

Tomcat is simply 20 years older than our variant of Hornet and Falcon. So no FBW but manual flight controll, analog avionics, simple HUD, complicated radar operation, no digital interface.

The most beautiful era of aviation - pilot skill was more important than computers. And you had to maneuver in a dogfight, no just look at bandit and fire the missile.

'A' variant could be eveen more fun with it's temperamental engines.

[power5]

Tomcat is simply 20 years older than our variant of Hornet and Falcon. So no FBW but manual flight controll, analog avionics, simple HUD, complicated radar operation, no digital interface.

The most beautiful era of aviation - pilot skill was more important than computers. And you had to maneuver in a dogfight, no just look at bandit and fire the missile.

'A' variant could be eveen more fun with it's temperamental engines.

 

Yes, very good thing they worked on the compressor stall noises for the 2.5.6 patch. :megalol: I do want to see the difference between my B and the "terrible" A.

[Anklebiter]

All I know is if I am in a life or death struggle one on one, I'd gladly trade a bit of airframe damage if it leads to a win vs. death.

[GVO]

Found this information from this article posted today on this forum: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27889/confessions-of-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor

 

"F-15s liked to drag the Tomcat high and use their superior thrust to gain an advantage. An off-the-books tactic we used to counter this was to manually extend the wings to the fullest, then incrementally lower the flaps beyond the normal maneuver setting. It was hugely successful, but the danger was that the flap torque tubes were not designed for this and could become stuck.

 

Life is all about tradeoffs, and not losing to an F-15 is certainly worth the ire of the maintenance Master Chief."

 

If they did it, in a training fight, I guess they would do it in a real fight?

[draconus]

...then incrementally lower the flaps beyond the normal maneuver setting.

Wait, I heard SME saying there's no intermediate flap setting.

[sLYFa]

Wait, I heard SME saying there's no intermediate flap setting.

 

I've heard that too. So is there an intermidiate setting after all?

[vadupleix]

Found this information from this article posted today on this forum: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27889/confessions-of-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor

 

"F-15s liked to drag the Tomcat high and use their superior thrust to gain an advantage. An off-the-books tactic we used to counter this was to manually extend the wings to the fullest, then incrementally lower the flaps beyond the normal maneuver setting. It was hugely successful, but the danger was that the flap torque tubes were not designed for this and could become stuck.

 

Life is all about tradeoffs, and not losing to an F-15 is certainly worth the ire of the maintenance Master Chief."

 

If they did it, in a training fight, I guess they would do it in a real fight?

 

“Manually extend the wing”? If I understand correctly you cannot manually extend the wing forward of the CADC schedule unless you use the emergency wing sweep handle, do they really use emergency sweep in BFM training?

[captain_dalan]

Wait, I heard SME saying there's no intermediate flap setting.

I've heard otherwise from some people i've interviewed. So maybe there was a variation per models and buno numbers? Or maybe just doctrinal difference?

[Uxi]

Generally speaking, the CADC program will always give you the best wingsweep for your current speed. There's very little reason to ever mess with manual sweep as the gains are either negligible (manual back for acceleration) or potentially harmful for the aircraft (manual forward at high speed to increase instant turnrate).

 

I have read in a couple places, pilots would manually change their sweep to deceive their opponents in ACM. I really doubt they were damaging their planes, though it's certainly possible some did at first and that NAVAIR responded to stop that with standing orders at procedures that went to the squadrons. IOW, oversweeping was probably the general rule rather than undersweeping.

 

At the end of the day this is a sim, what works for you works for you, just saying there's ways about this that don't wreck the jet.

 

:thumbup:

 

Simulation does give certain luxuries that Fleet pilots would have never had... not only in wasting missiles and fuels, but in overG... and damaging the plane in general. Hard to see how to address that outside of the squadron environment or a grading system after that would mitigate the otherwise simple logic of kills vs deaths.

[Uxi]

I had no idea we had manual manuevering flaps lol

 

You'd only notice if you had an analog mapping for it. If you're using a flaps toggle or flaps up/flaps down assignments there would be no way to notice.

 

The Virpil throttles have that analog lever sitting right there, so it was a natural mapping.

[draconus]

You'd only notice if you had an analog mapping for it. If you're using a flaps toggle or flaps up/flaps down assignments there would be no way to notice.

What does that have to do with hardware? Maneuvering flaps and auxiliary flaps have separate bindings.

[punk]

I have read in a couple places, pilots would manually change their sweep to deceive their opponents in ACM.

 

Slow AC swept wings back to try and make opponent misread energy level only. Usually only worked once, if at all, from what I have read.

[TLTeo]

I've heard that too. So is there an intermidiate setting after all?

 

 

I imagine "intermediate flap setting" is just what the DLC thumbwheel allows.

[r4y30n]

“Manually extend the wing”? If I understand correctly you cannot manually extend the wing forward of the CADC schedule unless you use the emergency wing sweep handle, do they really use emergency sweep in BFM training?

 

Well you'd probably end up fumbling around to get it back into the spider detent after your stunt, seems like a poor time to have your hand off the throttle.

[Spiceman]

Wait, I heard SME saying there's no intermediate flap setting.

 

There is no intermediate setting, i.e. there is no set flap position for “Half” or “T/O”, etc. You push the handle outwards, and it is a continuous movement between Up and Down and you can move it (and leave it) it anywhere in between.