What is the name of this maneuver at 06:59?

[oldtimesake]

https://www.bilibili.com/video/av78859339/

 

Starting from 06:59, you can see a Mig29 on your six and you are low on energy, which is not ideal. Then the OP starts to pull a very tight turn, and at 07:46 he turned the table completely.

 

I wonder is this maneuver useful in PVP?

[Smoked]

not really sure if its a named maneuver. He basically got a low speed high AOA at first, then nosed down hard and used the jets ability to accelerate fast and get his nose back on him once he got some speed built up... Looks like the Mig 29 was AI and stupid since it just kept trying to remain in that circle instead of extending out and reseting the fight..

[Machman2112]

It looks like a modified Chandelle. 180 degree climbing turn where at 180 degree mark you are at near stall speed.

[sk000tch]

not really sure if its a named maneuver. He basically got a low speed high AOA at first, then nosed down hard and used the jets ability to accelerate fast and get his nose back on him once he got some speed built up... Looks like the Mig 29 was AI and stupid since it just kept trying to remain in that circle instead of extending out and reseting the fight..

 

Agree it's definitely not a named maneuver, looks like just a low speed spiral after the vertical maneuver. On my phone so its hard to see but looks like ias is under 120 at the top? about 300 when he pulled? Can't see his stores but it's likely prohibited maneuver, at a minimum risk of departure. Results notwithstanding its a BFM error. Its an error to initiate nose high out of plane when low energy - period. With bandit in CZ and nearly 0 angle off its worse. Fortunately AI is bad.

 

By the book defensive BFM tactics would be to get some angle asap and defend imminent IR missile. Can't see speed, but if it's anywhere near rate band and can't' make sun a factor, brake turn at idle to get off his nose and pop flares, pickup visual and assess whether he's moving forward or aft on canopy. If he moving forward, max perform with nose low to gain energy, maybe you get lucky with AI cause an overshoot. Against a human with you that slow on his nose you're not going to pull him forward, he'll go lag or extend as needed and you'll lose visual. Realistically best bet is to redefine, roll and pull 90 nose low (idle/flare), rotate lift vector to be in front of bandit and max perform to level keeping lift vector in front of bandit and check for reversal criteria.

 

But different tactics work in DCS so who knows, definitely not me.

Edited February 26, 2020 by sk000tch

[Theodore42]

imo anything that works in a dogfight is correct :)

Also imo:

if you are in an F-16 against.... basically anything, going less that corner speed is doom. Even 330-350 kts will put you at a disadvantage against something like a 29 that, at that speed and distance, can easily put his nose over you whenever he wants.

 

F-16 wins by going fast.

 

not really sure if its a named maneuver. He basically got a low speed high AOA at first, then nosed down hard and used the jets ability to accelerate fast and get his nose back on him once he got some speed built up... Looks like the Mig 29 was AI and stupid since it just kept trying to remain in that circle instead of extending out and reseting the fight..

 

But as far as ACM goes, I agree with Smoked's analysis. I would just add that the minimum speed should be more like 330kts, not 150! Lower skilled AI will let you go any speed and react to your maneuvers spatially. Good for learning what to do, but not so much how to do it.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Theodore42

[Steph21]

It's a defensive spiral, used when low on energy and bogey on rear hemisphere closing for a gun shot. He managed to keep his acceleration lower than the MIG 29 in the downward spiral.

MIG 29 pulled up first an tried to extend, bad call against fighter equipped with missile (and bad call to have followed him in the spiral depending of his initial energy state).

 

And AIM9X+JHMCS = no fun :joystick:

Edited February 27, 2020 by Steph21

[Silversmith]

Slow in a F16 (i.e. below corner) is not true. Look at the video Wags posted of the EEGS radar gunsight in actual real life use against a (not trying very hard) Typhoon. He is down around 170 kts at some points. and manoeuvring well F16 has a small turn radius down there and its power allows it to still manoeuvre a low speeds. If you only fly above corner you are wasting a lot of the F16 potential envelope. Indeed in DCS at 500ft Huns only the F16 can sustain 220 kts at 3.4g and 16 dps turn rate and a 1400ft turn radius. That is very fightable , especially against a Mig29 obsessed with corner.

[Fri13]

https://www.bilibili.com/video/av78859339/

 

Starting from 06:59, you can see a Mig29 on your six and you are low on energy, which is not ideal. Then the OP starts to pull a very tight turn, and at 07:46 he turned the table completely.

 

I wonder is this maneuver useful in PVP?

 

Nothing special in there.

 

The F-16 was in dead position when the MiG-29 was behind it.

The MiG-29 doesn't have missiles (or doesn't use them).

The MiG-29 overspeeds the situation and tries to follow the F-16 that is much slower speed.

The F-16 just keeps pulling corkscrew maneuver (barrel roll is very loose wide maneuver, aileron roll is very tight/stationary maneuver, and corkscrew is between).

Then the MiG-29 tries to extend by thinking that F-16 would try to go for speed, but can't anymore pull toward F-16 and is forced to extend.

The F-16 turns behind the MiG-29 and launch missile.

 

The mistake that the MiG-29 did was to go after the F-16 at too close distance and in 7:05 you can see that MiG-29 realize being too fast. At 7:19 the MiG-29 pilot does mistake by going to dive, instead horizontal to get back behind. In that moment the F-16 gets the upper hand by having higher altitude. The MiG-29 does mistake by turning away to gain speed.

If it would be guns-only then the MiG-29 would had the upper hand again as extension would have succeeded, but because F-16 used missile, the game was over. The game was actually over on the moment when the MiG-29 run out of R-73 missiles and it went against a F-16 that had AIM-9x.

If the MiG-29 would have gone for guns kill in the moment it saw the F-16 to be slow at 6:57-7:04, by taking lead pursuit the situation could be different.

 

So simply put. A bad F-16 pilot and even worse MiG-29 pilot. But the AIM-9X saved the F-16 pilot plane....

[sk000tch]

imo anything that works in a dogfight is correct :)

 

This is just dumb dude, there is absolutely BFM errors. They, among other things are how you fail b-school, or eve BFM Syllabus in primary. I can show you instructor flight evals with failure to recognize break or ditch criteria at 4+ (any X on 4s are fail). failure to respect and/or respond to sensor nose as 4+, both of which would fail you, both of which happen here. Shitty AI opponents do not validate poor tactics, to steal a line from someone smarter than me - always assume your flying the goddamn Red Baron, he feels no pain, never runs out of heaters, and does not fear you.

 

To the poor souls watching this; with a bandit deep in your six, when you are too low on energy to break - preferred maneuver but it takes a 150-175 kts bleed (energy AND positional disadvantage is bad news), your only choice is to redefine. Roll over and pull, engines idle popping flares aggressively. Don't roll perfect 180, you get get some room before you roll your LV around (take a little practice, but turning room is life). As I said, on 90 downline put lift vector in front of opponent. Re IRCM - watch for missile at all times in this situation, sensor nose has become massive since HOBS, but even before all aspect heaters this was a perfect shot. If you see a missile, break, idle/flare. Missile will kink if it takes the bait, if azimuth does not change its tracking you and you have seconds, if that, to try against.

 

But please, don't ever pull nose high with bandit deep in rear quarter unless you are certain you have an energy advantage. It will slow you down by going vertical, it will further reduce your options and make you easier to kill. The overspeed comment above is a bit weird... if nose high 90 like that first to roll over is usually dead, if he doesn't flame out pushing jet too far into accidental tail slide. As he rolls over with either elevator or redder eh's going to lose sight, given his 6 to opponent, and still needs to create a RAC problem asap. I am not saying fight 2d in a viper or a hornet, if you're hot and going to overshoot, better to convert those knots to feet than just bleed (though extent into lag is more modern approach, remember, once you get decent as BFM, SEM is next, and SEM requires engaged/support roles that often relying on altitude separation).

 

To video dude's credit, he excited proper lv control in that post hole which ultimately won the fight (that and the apparent ordinance discrepancy helped).

 

Anyway, surgery was yesterday and already home! I'll be airborne in no time.

[Nealius]

There's nothing named or procedural about it. He's just dumping energy while maneuvering in the fight to get the MiG out front.

[Theodore42]

This is just dumb dude, there is absolutely BFM errors. They, among other things are how you fail b-school, or eve BFM Syllabus blah blah blah surgery blah.

 

When you quote me out of context like that I guess I sound pretty stupid.

But I think with the context of the rest of my post a normal person would infer my quote to mean "just have fun."

 

But you're right of course.

 

Everything about the F-16's design is speed. As to not duplicate what I said previously I will explain why:

The F-16 can sustain a turn as well as or better than anything you're fighting. But when under cornerspeed, which means you are hitting your AoA limit, you're going to be losing a lot more speed. Not a big deal, except that anything modern in the sky is going to be able to pull a higher AoA than you.

 

If a target is on your tail and you're going under corner speed, you've only got 25 AoA to work with and most anything else has more. They out turn you for a kill, even though the F-16 could out sustain-turn anything. So don't go under corner speed or you lose your advantage.

If you are on a target's tail under corner speed: he can just rip a crazy high AoA turn and you will never be able to get your nose over him and you'll pass him. So when you're behind someone, think about tactics that keep you fast when your target is trying to go slow.

[oldtimesake]

Want more AOA? Try MPO (manual pitch override)

[Deano87]

Want more AOA? Try MPO (manual pitch override)

 

Why would anybody try that. There is an AoA limit for a reason lol.

[sk000tch]

When you quote me out of context like that I guess I sound pretty stupid.

But I think with the context of the rest of my post a normal person would infer my quote to mean "just have fun."

 

But you're right of course.

 

Everything about the F-16's design is speed. As to not duplicate what I said previously I will explain why:

The F-16 can sustain a turn as well as or better than anything you're fighting. But when under cornerspeed, which means you are hitting your AoA limit, you're going to be losing a lot more speed. Not a big deal, except that anything modern in the sky is going to be able to pull a higher AoA than you.

 

If a target is on your tail and you're going under corner speed, you've only got 25 AoA to work with and most anything else has more. They out turn you for a kill, even though the F-16 could out sustain-turn anything. So don't go under corner speed or you lose your advantage.

If you are on a target's tail under corner speed: he can just rip a crazy high AoA turn and you will never be able to get your nose over him and you'll pass him. So when you're behind someone, think about tactics that keep you fast when your target is trying to go slow.

 

You’re right dude, my apologies. Saying it was dumb made it personal. It wasn’t my intent to make a personal attack or take your comment out of context. It was the comment I was calling dumb, to stress that there are rights and wrongs. BFM is treated like a one in a million skill around here like professional athlete, when it is really just another perishable pilot skill - a set of procedures, visual cues, geometry, etc., that must be practiced to maintain proficiency. Surgery comment made me laugh btw, I have had a lot of time watching tv while perusing forums on my phone – with a euphoric confidence – that has caused me to bless everyone with my wisdom whether they like it or not (woah... deja vu). Fwiw went well, proud owner of two prosthetics.

 

I’m also the first to admit that DCS Is much different than RL, so RL tactics may not – actually, in some cases definitely are not – what works best in the game. Similarly, everyone should play how they want. I get a little riled with some of the statements make like facts that are totally wrong, because I think it does a disservice to others. But at the end of the day it’s a game. No lost friends mourned. For those of us not so lucky, given the right chemistry, you might understand how an abnormally impassioned response could arise.

 

I do think you misunderstood what I was saying though (I wasn’t very clear). If you somehow allow yourself to be surprised by a bandit deep on your six <4,00ft range, your absolute priority is to defeat any weapons employed and create a BFM problem for your opponent asap. But it’s a shit situation with limited options.

 

I don’t get the AOA comment either (not yours), though not trying to pick more fights lol. AOA is not your friend here. We agree that speed is life. Get slow and you lose. We just disagree on the numbers a bit, and perhaps some of the absolutisms. I’m not... maybe we don’t disagree? Maybe I disagreed with somebody else but decided to pick on your quote? Unsure...

 

But since we're playing- At 400+ knots a break turn will cost you 100-150kts depending on whether you are defending guns or throttling back for DICM. The f-16 is blessed with a forgiving corner speed that is more of a plateau than a peak. But that plateau still has a lower end. So long as you can stay below maybe 20 AOA at max G you’ve got a chance, though <15 is better. I barely recall video, but he was really slow, and slow means high AOA. If your pull for G and you’re at 25 AOA don’t bother, you’re skidding. Wasteful excursion with no positional gain, sight picture at high AOA changes, gets disorienting when already fighting G. Situation is now worse. I don’t know to what extent/how well DCS models this though? The skid not Gs...

 

Defense requires solid understanding of offense for a reason. Defensive BFM is just extending time to kill, for help or an error by opponent. Of all the BFM problems you can create against your attacker, closure is usually highest risk in this situation. Perhaps you are lucky, flying against AI that pulls lead for guns after your break. If that happens by all means, maintain tally and jink off gun nose, put LV behind him pull and roll over onto his 6, be thankful for the gift reversal and free drinks. Matched opponent will pull lag though and move aft on canopy. At which point hopefully you got a look under wings as you have a decision to extend or turn, neither of which ideal. Such is the nature of an even fight, if you’re looking over your shoulder and pulling you’re losing. Hopefully its training and all you’ll need is surgery to repair your DSM/CSM when you’re old.

 

But fast or slow go vertical and God takes his G, it’s just worse slow. You lose rate & airspeed, radius increases up long side of egg, and unless you pulled into sun bright blue sky killed your DICM effectiveness. I’m not talking about when your offensive/neutral and you building a little vertical turning room for next pass. When you are truly F’d w/ severe positional disadvantage and not enough energy for break turn – you can make an awful choice, a bad choice, or extend time to kill and redefine. Aggressive flares, roll, pull 90 nose low and roll LV out in front of bandit to create some aspect/angle off. Try to minimize alt loss before pulling level else your just gifting room. Ditch follow is difficult against f—16, they are hard to see from high aspect against ground, might get lucky and benefit from an error. Be able to get some speed and rate fight, or ditch again. If no room, max perform angels for angles with whatever you’ve got, try to pull him forward into 2C and you got a chance. There are a lot of things that can happen but point being, if fight starts with bandit on your six with energy advantage, equal skill/plane there you can trade position/energy for RAC problems but if he counters without mistakes eventually you will lose. Worse, maybe was DACT against a hornet and you never got off his nose, or HOBS made sensor nose ~ 180 and he sent you a heater knife edge from high 6.

 

This is dumb argument anyway (not you bro), SEM is where fun is at.

 

Funny thing is I have zero viper time, just applying BFM principals to what I know about her. So like sig says – just some dude probably doesn’t have a clue, wondering why I’m awake…

 

Sorry again if you took offense, wasn’t intention. Perch sets with 9-mikes someday sounds fun?

[Theodore42]

Sorry again if you took offense, wasn’t intention. Perch sets with 9-mikes someday sounds fun?

 

Not a big deal, I just opened up my comment with a casual statement so people don't take me too seriously. But it is a statement that doesn't pertain to me under any circumstances so I understand why it triggered you. I opened with it because I've been known to shoot my mouth off :huh:

 

Also, thanks for the proper wall of text reply :D

[Bog9y]

You’re right dude, my apologies. Saying it was dumb made it personal. It wasn’t my intent to make a personal attack or take your comment out of context. It was the comment I was calling dumb, to stress that there are rights and wrongs. BFM is treated like a one in a million skill around here like professional athlete, when it is really just another perishable pilot skill - a set of procedures, visual cues, geometry, etc., that must be practiced to maintain proficiency. Surgery comment made me laugh btw, I have had a lot of time watching tv while perusing forums on my phone – with a euphoric confidence – that has caused me to bless everyone with my wisdom whether they like it or not (woah... deja vu). Fwiw went well, proud owner of two prosthetics.

 

I’m also the first to admit that DCS Is much different than RL, so RL tactics may not – actually, in some cases definitely are not – what works best in the game. Similarly, everyone should play how they want. I get a little riled with some of the statements make like facts that are totally wrong, because I think it does a disservice to others. But at the end of the day it’s a game. No lost friends mourned. For those of us not so lucky, given the right chemistry, you might understand how an abnormally impassioned response could arise.

 

I do think you misunderstood what I was saying though (I wasn’t very clear). If you somehow allow yourself to be surprised by a bandit deep on your six <4,00ft range, your absolute priority is to defeat any weapons employed and create a BFM problem for your opponent asap. But it’s a shit situation with limited options.

 

I don’t get the AOA comment either (not yours), though not trying to pick more fights lol. AOA is not your friend here. We agree that speed is life. Get slow and you lose. We just disagree on the numbers a bit, and perhaps some of the absolutisms. I’m not... maybe we don’t disagree? Maybe I disagreed with somebody else but decided to pick on your quote? Unsure...

 

But since we're playing- At 400+ knots a break turn will cost you 100-150kts depending on whether you are defending guns or throttling back for DICM. The f-16 is blessed with a forgiving corner speed that is more of a plateau than a peak. But that plateau still has a lower end. So long as you can stay below maybe 20 AOA at max G you’ve got a chance, though <15 is better. I barely recall video, but he was really slow, and slow means high AOA. If your pull for G and you’re at 25 AOA don’t bother, you’re skidding. Wasteful excursion with no positional gain, sight picture at high AOA changes, gets disorienting when already fighting G. Situation is now worse. I don’t know to what extent/how well DCS models this though? The skid not Gs...

 

Defense requires solid understanding of offense for a reason. Defensive BFM is just extending time to kill, for help or an error by opponent. Of all the BFM problems you can create against your attacker, closure is usually highest risk in this situation. Perhaps you are lucky, flying against AI that pulls lead for guns after your break. If that happens by all means, maintain tally and jink off gun nose, put LV behind him pull and roll over onto his 6, be thankful for the gift reversal and free drinks. Matched opponent will pull lag though and move aft on canopy. At which point hopefully you got a look under wings as you have a decision to extend or turn, neither of which ideal. Such is the nature of an even fight, if you’re looking over your shoulder and pulling you’re losing. Hopefully its training and all you’ll need is surgery to repair your DSM/CSM when you’re old.

 

But fast or slow go vertical and God takes his G, it’s just worse slow. You lose rate & airspeed, radius increases up long side of egg, and unless you pulled into sun bright blue sky killed your DICM effectiveness. I’m not talking about when your offensive/neutral and you building a little vertical turning room for next pass. When you are truly F’d w/ severe positional disadvantage and not enough energy for break turn – you can make an awful choice, a bad choice, or extend time to kill and redefine. Aggressive flares, roll, pull 90 nose low and roll LV out in front of bandit to create some aspect/angle off. Try to minimize alt loss before pulling level else your just gifting room. Ditch follow is difficult against f—16, they are hard to see from high aspect against ground, might get lucky and benefit from an error. Be able to get some speed and rate fight, or ditch again. If no room, max perform angels for angles with whatever you’ve got, try to pull him forward into 2C and you got a chance. There are a lot of things that can happen but point being, if fight starts with bandit on your six with energy advantage, equal skill/plane there you can trade position/energy for RAC problems but if he counters without mistakes eventually you will lose. Worse, maybe was DACT against a hornet and you never got off his nose, or HOBS made sensor nose ~ 180 and he sent you a heater knife edge from high 6.

 

This is dumb argument anyway (not you bro), SEM is where fun is at.

 

Funny thing is I have zero viper time, just applying BFM principals to what I know about her. So like sig says – just some dude probably doesn’t have a clue, wondering why I’m awake…

 

Sorry again if you took offense, wasn’t intention. Perch sets with 9-mikes someday sounds fun?

 

Interesting read! I recently started a thread to ask how real fighter pilots felt about BFM in DCS and how real life tactics translate into DCS. So I found your comment about that quite interesting to read. I have been reading tons of stuff from real manuals and tactics but it seems that when I get into a dogfight I forget 90% of that stuff and just fly the plane reactively and not getting into an offensive position easily. :cry:

[Geraki]

barrel roll

[=475FG= Dawger]

That was a defensive spiral. There is even a brevity code for it, posthole.

 

The F-16 could have been more aggressive with his lift vector management at several points and probably gained angles. The Mig did not seem to be max performing, so it was probably low level AI. The Mig's floor save led to his demise.

 

Of course the F-16 made a critical error just before entering the defensive spiral that should have led to an easy gun shot for the Mig.

 

Go Up, Blow Up.

[Stubbies2003]

Yeah the pilot was obviously trying to force an overshoot on the MiG but that is a hella high risk move as any good pilot will take advantage of that slow speed for a gun shot. Agreed the only reason that guy lived is low level AI opponent. Don't try that on a PVP server. They will eat your lunch with you just hanging in the sky like that dude was.

[sk000tch]

Interesting read! I recently started a thread to ask how real fighter pilots felt about BFM in DCS and how real life tactics translate into DCS. So I found your comment about that quite interesting to read. I have been reading tons of stuff from real manuals and tactics but it seems that when I get into a dogfight I forget 90% of that stuff and just fly the plane reactively and not getting into an offensive position easily. :cry:

 

jesus i have barely any recollection of this thread... flashback to when I was recovering from an injury/surgery.

 

I don't generally do the walls of text thing, fortunately it's not too bad. If it helped you then great, I am just glad I didn't embarrass myself.

 

btw - solution to your problem is time in seat and bfm drills. Athletes don't practice how to play a game, they do small side drills, then large side drills, and finally scrimmage. No different here

 

To be relevant to this thread - rather than practicing BFM, and work on in close defense. Focus on specifics like lift vector, airspeed/AOA/energy management at first, then maintaining tally, recognizing WEZ, assessing AWE, opportunities to separate, etc. Fly perch sets - lots of them, and do them precisely. Know your game plan until you don't forget 90%. At first just breaking at 9 is difficult, lift vector will be all over the place... eventually plane control will become much better and you can focus on maintaining tally, recognizing the visual cues that tell you what bandit is doing. Review your flights on tacview and note all the mistakes you didn't see/failed to exploit. Next time pick something else, maybe scissors, or snapshots, etc. Bonus if you train with the same guy as you'll have a well trained wingman for SEM.

 

That was a defensive spiral. There is even a brevity code for it, posthole.

 

...

 

Of course the F-16 made a critical error just before entering the defensive spiral that should have led to an easy gun shot for the Mig.

 

Go Up, Blow Up.

Somehow many words were written arguing whether going vertical with bandit in close deep on 6 was a good idea...

[Eldur]

It looks like a modified Chandelle.

 

Reminded me of that as well. It's literally how to win a dogfight in a 109. Or any plane that has superior low speed handling and climb rate.