Helicopter VS Jets

[Blackjack_UK]

Yellowgixxer, I apologize that I came off argumentative or like I was picking a fight. I’ve known only a few helo pilots (one AH-1T and the other a UH-60) and both were very professional. I have no idea how much skill it takes to keep a helo airborne, let alone make it do what you want. My comment was meant to rebut what I felt to be a feeling that fast mover aviators would take additional risk (of death and damage to aircraft) and make something harder than it has to be (by foregoing missles for Cannon) only for the purpose of proving something.

 

If that was not your feeling, then I misunderstood

 

No apology needed - You weren't being rude or coming across as picking a fight, you just had a different opinion.

 

Thanks though, and in turn I hope I didn't come across as more arrogant than I actually am...

[BlacleyCole]

In the desert it’s hard to lock on a helo with a misleading and the helo guns are longer ranging than the jets so in a fight the helo has a tremendous advantage

[rinkerbuck]

excellent perspectives gents!

[Mars Exulte]

@yellow

Good points about the engagements, and the Falklands reference. *tips hat* Not that my hat tip is worth much. Also, my perspective was the same as Mikeck's.

 

@BlacleyCole

Any slight range/aim advantage from helos guns (which vary btw tremendously from machine guns to 30mm or nothing at all) would be kind of irrelevant in the face of 4000rpm while ALSO being quite accurate. It's certainly not a ''tremendous'' advantage, although featureless desert may make distance gauging harder it'll also make sure you have nowhere to hide.

Edited March 6, 2020 by zhukov032186

[Blackjack_UK]

@yellow

Good points about the engagements, and the Falklands reference. *tips hat* Not that my hat tip is worth much. Also, my perspective was the same as Mikeck's.

.

 

Mate, it's the internet. *Any* hat tip is appreciated ;)

[BlacleyCole]

@yellow

Good points about the engagements, and the Falklands reference. *tips hat* Not that my hat tip is worth much. Also, my perspective was the same as Mikeck's.

 

@BlacleyCole

Any slight range/aim advantage from helos guns (which vary btw tremendously from machine guns to 30mm or nothing at all) would be kind of irrelevant in the face of 4000rpm while ALSO being quite accurate. It's certainly not a ''tremendous'' advantage, although featureless desert may make distance gauging harder it'll also make sure you have nowhere to hide.

 

@zu... the desert actually helps mask the heat of the helo first the heat is disapated by the rotors cooling it faster and its harder for a ir lock-in the helo.

[Murey2]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=265350

 

 

There is some bug in DCS regarding Sensors, that's why it's near impossible to reproduce that in the game with the bugs above still around! But thankfully it's reported and let's pray and wait...

 

 

Online I tested Helo vs jets and my score was 11-1...

[BaD CrC]

[Mikeck]

The last sentence being the most important thing she says: “....unless they have superiority in distance and altitude”. Yeah, well why wouldn’t they unless they were told to get close and down low so we have a chance to kill you

[Mars Exulte]

@zu... the desert actually helps mask the heat of the helo first the heat is disapated by the rotors cooling it faster and its harder for a ir lock-in the helo.

 

That's... not really accurate. The Afghans had little trouble shooting down Hinds with Stingers in the 80s. Ambient desert temps are nothing compared to a turbines exhaust, which is what is typically the heat source on both fixed wing and rotary aircraft. It obviously didn't cool it enough to matter THAT much, and a larger aerial missile is likely to have a more sensitive seeker since it wouldn't be restricted by 'must fit on man's shoulder'. When compared to hot exhaust, the difference between 100f and 130f is somewhere around ''zero''.

 

And it's also largely irrelevant because rotors greatly increase radar signature, which as mentioned in the cited wiki, the Eagles were detecting the helos from over 40mi away and they were not allowed to engage.

 

The scenario where IR affects targeting is more likely to be in an A2G situation where many possible targets (buildings, small vehicles, etc) are apt ti be much closer to the ambient temp.

[Anklebiter]

That's... not really accurate. The Afghans had little trouble shooting down Hinds with Stingers in the 80s.

 

 

Wouldn't the heat difference against the sky be much more than against the ground?

[Mars Exulte]

Wouldn't the heat difference against the sky be much more than against the ground?

 

Maybe slightly, but ambient temp is ambient temp. There's also this factor, IR missiles aren't ''dumb''. The first gen seekers were basically single pixel and were not externally cooled. That's why they could be distracted by the sun.

 

''All aspect'' missiles introduced higher resolution seekers and external cooling (often argon) this made them MUCH more sensitive and also much harder to decoy as they were capable of detecting a range and discarding ''too cool'' and ''too hot'' in a manner not unlike radar filtering false signals.

 

More modern missiles have an actual infrared camera. They don't just see pixels that are hot or cold, they see the actual aircraft. That's why they're more resistant to countermeasures, a flare does not in anyway resemble an aircraft.

 

In conclusion, it's not likely to have a significant effect on a missile made in the last 40 years or so.

[Raisuli]

A helo is nothing that can't be fixed with a 2,000 pound bomb.

 

 

https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/this-f-15e-scored-an-air-to-air-kill-by-dropping-a-bomb-on-an-iraqi-helicopter

[BaD CrC]

Everything can be fixed with a 2,000 pound bomb as long as it is slow enough and it is still on the ground, which was the case of the Hind in this story. Not exactly an air kill.

[okopanja]

In 1991 Yugoslavian Mig-21 intercepted unauthorized flight of EU mission, consisting of 2 Agusta Bell 206

 

Although the "para" consisted of 2 interceptors one had to abort the mission due to the engine problem

 

The remaining one continued and fired guns in front of them. On next circle he locked them with 2 R-60 and fired. One missed, second passed. Between cities Cakovec and Varazdin the streight distance is ~ 12 km. He had GCI support, but still apears to have easily locked them with R-60.

 

Also note that scatch might be somewhat inaccurate for mig-21 since it displays time stamps frequency. Therefore the flight path is most likely guessed. In contrast helicopter track looks more accurate.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_European_Community_Monitor_Mission_helicopter_downing

 

As  a child I witnessed simulated dogfight between J-22 or G-4 and Gazelle helicopter. I still remember crazy manouvers the Gazelle pilot took. Flying upwards, the spinning 180 degrees, nose diving, pulling out, going the other side, doing  the same thing again and again.

 

Back then these choppers were carrying Strela 2M, so please do not assume Gazelle could not acquire the target located above.

 

Here you can see them being armed:

 

https://tangosix.rs/2015/13/03/video-reportaza-demonstracija-naoruzavanja-helikoptera-gama/