Jump to content

New stability patch = UFO


BadHabit

Recommended Posts

Wow, well that explains why I felt like it jumped off the runway yesterday in the couple of flights I had.

 

I also had a hell of a time getting it trimmed last night (in latest 2.5.6). It would constantly 'overreact' on my trim inputs, but with a delay. Plane is 5m/s nose down, quick hit on on trim nose up (and sometimes two, cause its not reacting to the first input), and it trims, but keeps going until I trim nose down, and it trims nose down, but keeps going, and so it goes.

Been flying it a lot in the last week+ in 2.5.5, in the same mission, and never had trouble trimming it and keeping it trimmed.

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

- Personal wishlist: F-15A, F-4S Phantom II, JAS 39A Gripen, SAAB 35 Draken, F-104 Starfighter, Panavia Tornado IDS.

 

| Windows 11 | i5-12400 | 64Gb DDR4 | RTX 3080 | 2x M.2 | 27" 1440p | Rift CV1 | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFG Crosswind pedals |

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, even the autopilot now has huge problems getting it into a level flight, its almost always overreacting and trims too far up or down.

Servus! :smilewink:

My DCS:World-Modules:

A-10C, UH-1H, F-86F, Fw-190D9, MiG-21bis, P-51D, Mi-8MTV2,Bf-109K4, MiG-15bis, L-39C, Hawk, NTTR, Mirage 2000C, SA342M Gazelle.

 

Wishlist:

P-40, F-104G/S, Saab J-35 Draken, A-1H Skyraider, Su-17/22M4. :music_whistling:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BadHabit, if you could somehow quantify or provide feedback in more descriptive manner (other than UFO), I can relay such info to Dolphin immediately.

AMD Ryzen 5900X @ 4.95 Ghz / Asus Crosshair VII X470 / 32 GB DDR4 3600 Mhz Cl16 / Radeon 6800XT / Samsung 960 EVO M.2 SSD / Creative SoundBlaster AE-9 / HP Reverb G2 / VIRPIL T-50CM /
Thrustmaster TPR Pendular Rudder Pedals / Audio Technica ATH-MSR7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking at those tracks, my guess is he means that the aircraft can remain stable and controllable at extremely low speeds (<200 km/h) and/or high angles of attack (looks like 45-50ish degrees, far above the limit of the AoA gauge). At least, that's what I'm seeing in those tracks - he goes stick full aft and the jet just does its thing (mostly) without a care. I couldn't really replicate the behavior myself though, at high AoA with stick full aft you can feel the aircraft complaining (but I did not manage to get it to depart).

 

 

edit: to elaborate on the trim issue, I think it's velocity dependent. What I think I'm seeing is that between 600 and 950ish km/h at ~2300m (so roughly Mach 0.5 to 0.85-ish) the autopilot can trim the jet just fine. At lower speeds the autopilot tends to stabilize with the nose down, and at higher speeds it stabilizes with the nose up. I also agree that the trim feels a lot more sensitive than before the change; in my very quick tests I did manage to trim the aircraft, but it wasn't as easy.

 

 

I tested both in the Caucasus free flight map. Track attached.

Mig21Test.trk


Edited by TLTeo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, now it goes far away out of 32° AOA and if you pull the stick carefully around 35° aircraft yaws out the turn rapidly tends to make a half spin and shows great loss of stability! But on any hi AOA it keeps very good turn maneuvering i mean ailerons effectiveness! That looks wrong!

As i know tendention to yaw spin on hi AOA is tipical behavior of the aircrafts with triangle shape of the wing but before that we have to see decrease of aileron effectivness! Now we dont!


Edited by Shmal

Мой позывной в DCS: _SkyRider_

Мой канал YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

 

My callsign on DCS is: _SkyRider_

My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BadHabit, if you could somehow quantify or provide feedback in more descriptive manner (other than UFO), I can relay such info to Dolphin immediately.

 

 

Hiromachi, I am not an Engineer, I was just dissapointed. I provided the trk for you guys to judge. You can see my ipnuts, the take off speed and the continues cobra flight.

"These are not the bugs you are looking for..":pilotfly:

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

My YouTube channel

 

SPECS

-AMD FX8370 8 Core Processor 4.2 ghz

-GIGABYTE 970A-UD3P

-GTX 1050 TI Windforce 4g

-16 GB RAM

-Saitek X 52

-FaceNOIRtrack - 3 point clip Red Led

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not engineer either. Hence why I ask for more descriptive points which I can forward to guys instead of "UFO", "On rails", "Scripted", etc. Those terms dont tell me much and perception of the problem may differ, so even if its your personal observation and feeling what is not correct, as long as you can describe it, please do so.

AMD Ryzen 5900X @ 4.95 Ghz / Asus Crosshair VII X470 / 32 GB DDR4 3600 Mhz Cl16 / Radeon 6800XT / Samsung 960 EVO M.2 SSD / Creative SoundBlaster AE-9 / HP Reverb G2 / VIRPIL T-50CM /
Thrustmaster TPR Pendular Rudder Pedals / Audio Technica ATH-MSR7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So i made a short video and the track with demonstration of good effectiveness ailerons on hi AOA:

and second video:

MiG-21 definitely can't to fly with AOA 40° in horizontal flight because the flow is not enough to keep his aerofoils effective!

MiG-21 good aileron effectiveness on critical AOA.trk


Edited by Shmal

Мой позывной в DCS: _SkyRider_

Мой канал YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

 

My callsign on DCS is: _SkyRider_

My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I see what you mean. Thank you Shmal!

AMD Ryzen 5900X @ 4.95 Ghz / Asus Crosshair VII X470 / 32 GB DDR4 3600 Mhz Cl16 / Radeon 6800XT / Samsung 960 EVO M.2 SSD / Creative SoundBlaster AE-9 / HP Reverb G2 / VIRPIL T-50CM /
Thrustmaster TPR Pendular Rudder Pedals / Audio Technica ATH-MSR7

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Enough clear information of behavior MiG-21 on such AOA and speeds.

Sorry for my stile of translation in English!

But this last changing has to be in Bulgarian and German Flight Manual of MiG-21bis!

358841788_MiG-21manualtranslation.thumb.jpg.fad19f36756c6634cb6db492decf8f00.jpg


Edited by Shmal

Мой позывной в DCS: _SkyRider_

Мой канал YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

 

My callsign on DCS is: _SkyRider_

My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear developers!

Our community of virtual and some real pilots, (=RAF=, FF and others) are really appreciated the work has been done with flight-model of MiG-21 last update!

Generally flight-model is better than before! The plane feels better on the stick, better while increasing AOA!

It's better while touching the runaway! The main gear are stronger as it has to be and not so easy damaging! Thank you for that! But front gear looks too jumpy! Yeah its going to jump if touching was inaccurate! And it looks like nose now is lighter! To be clear even in air nose feels to has less weight! Plane even on 700 km/h very sesitive to little movements of the stick in pitch and tending to wobble! This behavior easy to see even while trimming. Triming now is more complicated in pitch than earlier!

 

There are some very importants remarks!

1. Excessive reaction in roll. Effectiveness of ailerons is too hi almost at all modes of flight. Starting from very sesitive to little movements of the stick in roll direction on landing while approaching, even using curves on stick! Especially around zero zone! As we know on low speed any plane feels less reactive on stick! It can't has the same effectivenes as on hi speed! But now we can see opposite picture!

Roll is equally effective on landing, on 700 km/h low alt and even on critical low speed on hi altitudes!

The real ''stick in the eye'' is the same effectivenes in roll while hi value of AOA! As we know than more you pull the stick than less effective ailerons because of changing conditions the flows on airofoils!

Close to critical AOA ailerons has to be ineffective! Now we have opposite behavior of them!

2. We see the AOA has changed judging on gauge in cockpit and DCS tray and we can see it in Tacview! The exact amounts is discussing and we hope you have enough certain information from real sources!

But we have info that critical amount of real MiG-21bis is 28° in absolute value! So in cockpit it may be 32° and we understand it's up to you! But now we are able to pull the stick and to see like the needle is laying on 35°... Ok. But again after that tha plane can't to fly in horizontal flight with 40° AOA in DCS system tray and 1G load! We see steady flight with this conditions! More than that and again the effectivenes of ailerons are still very good! On such hi AOA even short time before nose has to go down ailerons has to be less affective than reaction on rudder!

3. We know that tipical behavior of the plain close to critical amounts of AOA is buffet! We want to see jolting, shaking before critical AOA! It's preceding the distinctive throw in roll and shaking in yaw that we know like tipical behavior of the planes with triangle wing! Now thankfully we have this tipical throw! But its has to be to the opposite direction of the turn! Not to the right side every time! This throw is going because changing the conditions of the flows on left and right wings in different ways and it makes the lift on the inner wing and this lift is forcing the plane out of the turn in roll direction!

4. Pay attention, please on condition when engine is stopping especially while stall! It's going to work while quite wild stall!

 

So, we would like to see such behaviour in current flight model!

Thank you for the work!


Edited by Shmal

Мой позывной в DCS: _SkyRider_

Мой канал YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

 

My callsign on DCS is: _SkyRider_

My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

With the new update I noticed an improvement on the pitch control but the plane is super stable on extreme AoA, almost unable to stall the plane on very low speed. I provide this 6thGenMig21.trk with all my notices.

 

 

Still a UFO but more like a 6th gen now. I only wish we could have back the airplane we flew on 1.5 Mig has lost all the character once had.

"These are not the bugs you are looking for..":pilotfly:

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

My YouTube channel

 

SPECS

-AMD FX8370 8 Core Processor 4.2 ghz

-GIGABYTE 970A-UD3P

-GTX 1050 TI Windforce 4g

-16 GB RAM

-Saitek X 52

-FaceNOIRtrack - 3 point clip Red Led

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, notice that you can no longer stall the jet even at 33+ AOA and low speed.

 

 

I guess it is wrong and it need to be fixed because we the 21 is now a FBW 6th jet !

 

 

EDIT:

Please find enclose a track and tacview files were you'll see you can pull 33° without having any troubles flying the jet.


Edited by Moody1204
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I like to think that current flight-model is a result of my notes to developer upper in this topic but i am not sure! ))

So what we have now? The developer just turned off the stall and spin behavior of the aircraft after 32° AOA (on the cockpit indicator it is 35°). It is clear!

Also, it seems to me (but it is just my fine feelings), the effectiveness of aelerons close to critical AOA are slightly reduced.

The reaction for the pedals seems slightly better than earlier as it has to be!

Obviously, now it has much softer reaction of the gear!

Aircraft is unrealistic jumpy while running. If you try carefully to take up the nose wheel and hold it, the plane is going to airborne itself but if your stick is not on the exact center line in roll direction you will have the rapid jump from one main gear to another and throw you in roll! It's very strange behavior because it has to be in another way! It has to look like smooth release by the main gear of the runaway! Slight touch of one gear is irrelevant and has not notable!

 

Also, it has no buffet before critical AOA.

It has no rocking from wing to wing on critical AOA.

 

So... we just have to wait and ask the developer to continue the work have been started!


Edited by Shmal

Мой позывной в DCS: _SkyRider_

Мой канал YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

 

My callsign on DCS is: _SkyRider_

My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
At lower speeds the autopilot tends to stabilize with the nose down, and at higher speeds it stabilizes with the nose up. I also agree that the trim feels a lot more sensitive than before the change; in my very quick tests I did manage to trim the aircraft, but it wasn't as easy.

 

 

I tested both in the Caucasus free flight map. Track attached.

 

 

Just as an fyi, some autopilots are not "full range", including the Su-25T. They are intended for cruise speed, and the AP can handle that, but if you're too high or too low it's not able to adjust. So, this particular issue is probably not a "bug", considering other aircraft share it and it's regarded as "correct".


Edited by zhukov032186

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just as an fyi, some autopilots are not "full range", including the Su-25T. They are intended for cruise speed, and the AP can handle that, but if you're too high or too it's not able to adjust. So, this particular issue is probably not a "bug", considering other aircraft share it and it's regarded as "correct".

 

 

Fair enough, that makes sense. It did behave differently from previous iterations of the FM though. Does anyone have info on how the AP system actually works?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the current FM is science fiction. no way to stall it, and it can reach 45-50° AoA fairly easly, even in low speed scissors.

 

actually makes the dogfight against F-5 ridiculous

[sIGPIC]https://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic70550_3.gif[/sIGPIC]

Asus Z390-H - SSD M.2 EVO 970 - Intel I9 @5.0ghz - 32gb DDR4 4000 - EVGA 3090 - Cougar FSSB + Virpil WRBRD + Hornet Stick - Thrustmaster TPR Pedal + WinWing MIP + Orion + TO and CO pannels - Track IR5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While the current flight model may not be 100% realistc and still needs some tuning it is much better than what we used to have. Plane at least feels like a delta now.

 

I woul not want to see the return to 1.5 days.

 

a plane that doesn't stall and takes AoA's that even gen5 fighter hhave trouble to reach, while keeping aileron authority ? if you like UFO's, I guess..

 

 

lets remain serious

[sIGPIC]https://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic70550_3.gif[/sIGPIC]

Asus Z390-H - SSD M.2 EVO 970 - Intel I9 @5.0ghz - 32gb DDR4 4000 - EVGA 3090 - Cougar FSSB + Virpil WRBRD + Hornet Stick - Thrustmaster TPR Pedal + WinWing MIP + Orion + TO and CO pannels - Track IR5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...