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FW190D9 can't dogfight.


Snapage

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I've suspected for some time now that the Dora's flight performance has been 'dumbed down' somewhat, since the real-life Dora could produce 2,240 HP with MW50 turned on, making it an absolute *powerhouse*, leaps and bounds ahead of all the other fighters.

 

The DCS version feels a bit doggy to me. It should be able to accelerate like a bat outta hell and out-fly (but not necessarily out-turn) the Allied aircraft.

 

The Dora wasn't an ultra-lightweight purebred dogfighter that could turn on a dime, but it certainly was a horsepower monster, and I just have a suspicion that the DCS version has been 'gimped' to prevent complaints from owners of the other modules--in particular, the P-51D, which was fast and a decent fighter, but very average for its day.

 

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Once, when i was flying p-51.

I got shot by k-4 or fw190 cant remember now, but my boost regulator was damaged, in the way that i could boost way over 67" it was way over 75". My engine was OK with that, only thing was that i could maintain over 400mph at SL :) chase party gave up quickly :)

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How is that an exploit?

 

IMO it's not, but could be thought as somewhat iffy regardless - perhaps.

 

In another unnamed sim ages ago, folks used to map their vertical trim on a slider and used that in a pinch in order to turn tighter. An exploit or not? Although it has to be said that you're using the controls available to you in a way they're used anyway instead of exploiting an obvious loophole, so there indeed is a difference there.

 

apply settings like I have in RL

 

Because their, ehm, engine damage model was more realistic than ours perhaps? ;)


Edited by msalama

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'dumbed down'

 

In order to prove it, you'll need to install a previous version of DCS and do some comparisons. Because suspicions without evidence are of no worth.

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Just a thought, but why fixating on past states? Why not just check that current state is conform enough to what we know was IRL status?

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Just a thought, but why fixating on past states? Why not just check that current state is conform enough to what we know was IRL status?
The fan boys are quiet now.. They're just in the denial phase. It's ok.

 

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No denial, my comments where only to clarify an inaccurate comment you made. You assumed there was a performance change recently and I pointed out that the Mustang has not changed. That is all.
It clearly changed. And it's clearly a bug that is exploited. It usually occurs when the P51D suffers damage. This discussion is already old, as the bug appeared in P51D infancy then it reappeared a couple of years ago. Since then, no word from ED.

 

But this topic is about the Dora and it kind of drifted away.

 

Back on topic now. I'll wait until the new damage model comes out then I'll make the decision to ditch Dora or DCS altogether as so many axis pilots did if this kind of glitches persists. I'm here for the truth not the money.

 

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Edited by amazingme

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Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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Ah, see, now I asked for that clarification earlier in these posts. You are concentrating on the damage model changes. Your right, the damage model is a mess, we all have known that, and yes, they are making changes to all of the aircraft. We all know they are not done with those changes and hope they will be fixed soon.

 

Again, I was only referring to the base performance capability of an undamaged P-51 as it exists in DCS, and it has not changed in 5+ years.

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Ah, see, now I asked for that clarification earlier in these posts. You are concentrating on the damage model changes. Your right, the damage model is a mess, we all have known that, and yes, they are making changes to all of the aircraft. We all know they are not done with those changes and hope they will be fixed soon.

 

Again, I was only referring to the base performance capability of an undamaged P-51 as it exists in DCS, and it has not changed in 5+ years.

The problem is that the bug appears recently not only on the damaged P51 but also when you push the engine to the max, hence the exploit.

 

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Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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So, no pilot in history has ever turned off an automatic mode to manually control something to get more performance? No one has pushed higher power settings than "recommended"?

 

That is all that is being done, and is no exploit. The controls are being used exactly as the pilot would be able to do so. Unlike the 109 TRIM that people use in combat to circumvent the stick forces being implied by the flight model, but that is going off on another tangent.

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The fan boys are quiet now.. They're just in the denial phase. It's ok.

 

And you're in the ad hominem phase, of which you inaccurately and incorrectly blamed others just yesterday. Heh :D

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So, no pilot in history has ever turned off an automatic mode to manually control something to get more performance? No one has pushed higher power settings than "recommended"?

 

That is all that is being done, and is no exploit. The controls are being used exactly as the pilot would be able to do so. Unlike the 109 TRIM that people use in combat to circumvent the stick forces being implied by the flight model, but that is going off on another tangent.

 

Dude.. did you notice the boost?

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Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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Claim: Dora changed, "in the last few patches it has been made useless for dogfighting"

 

This plane has never been great at dogfighting but it was at least viable back in 1.5 before the MW50 was broken. Its speed and climb rate made up for its terrible manueverability.

 

But in the last few patches it has been made useless for dogfighting. The P51Ds performance has been improved leaving the FW190D9 with no option but to run away from a fight. And the FW190D9s auto radiators are broken which I presume is the cause for random engine failures and loss of performance. But even when manually controlling the radiator the plane does not have enough of an edge to be able to dogfight.

 

I don't know if the plane is underforming overall or if it flies like the real thing but it is terrible. It's hard to tell when the engine powers down unpredictably without any indication.

 

This is a bad thing for people who fly the Dora and fly againts the Dora because it makes for boring fights, if you can call them fights. Basically you end up either chasing a Dora and when you turn away he tries to attack you and then has to run away. It's literally hit and run. If the Dora tries to stay in the fight he is shot down easily.

 

I don't know if there is a solution to this(maybe its engine is to buggy and broken) but it really sucks. The only viable fighter the Germans have is the 109K4 at the moment.

 

If the Dora can't be competative then we have a pretty poor variety of german fighter planes.

 

I have all the WW2 planes except the 190A8. I am not biased, I just want fun and exciting aerial combat in DCS.

 

 

 

I installed 1.5.8, and compared Dora 1.5.8.12823 with Dora 2.5.6.47404 OB.

 

I made a mission, put in the warbirds, takeoff from runway.

Temperature: 15°C, no Wind.

 

 

Plan:

 

-takeoff

-heading to the sea

-accelerating to ~550km/h with 3000prm

 

-hard left turn, bleeding speed, trying to ride at the edge of stall

 

-continuous left turns with 3000rpm at ~300km/h, keeping VSI around 0, no rudder input

 

-continuous right turns with 3000rpm at ~300km/h, keeping VSI around 0, no rudder input

 

-accelerating with 3250/mw50

-hard left turn

 

-continuous left turns with 3250rpm/mw50 at ~300km/h, keeping VSI around 0, no rudder input

 

-continuous right turns with 3250rpm/mw50 at ~300km/h, keeping VSI around 0, no rudder input

 

-accelerating with 3250/mw50 to 500km/h

-pulling up vertically

-throttle idle at 120-150km/h

-accelerating with 3250/mw50 to ~560km/h, pulling hard

 

 

Findings:

Dora behaves identical in DCS 1.5.8 and DCS 2.5.6 in the tested areas, turn rates, acceleration. The differences diminish in the error of measurement.

It doesn't look like anything changed in the Dora's FM since 1.5.8 (End of 2017)

 

 

 

 

 

Video playback is 4x fast forward and contains both testruns.

1.5.8 first part, 2.5.6 second part

 

 

 

Mustang comparison 1.5.8 // 2.5.6 will follow soon.

 

 

Attachments: Zipped Tacview tracks

 

 

 

 

p.s. I don't like to Dogfight in the Dora. But ED didn't change its FM.

Tacview-20200501-134034-DCS-DORA_1.5.8.txt.acmi.zip

Tacview-20200501-135639-DCS-DORA_2.5.6OB.txt.acmi.zip

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It doesn't look like anything changed

 

Thank you, finally something tangible instead of crap spewed by persons unmentioned :thumbup: Waiting in earnest for the Mustang test as well. Thanks again. S!

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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Claim: Dora changed, "in the last few patches it has been made useless for dogfighting"

 

 

 

 

 

I installed 1.5.8, and compared Dora 1.5.8.12823 with Dora 2.5.6.47404 OB.

 

I made a mission, put in the warbirds, takeoff from runway.

Temperature: 15°C, no Wind.

 

 

Plan:

 

-takeoff

-heading to the sea

-accelerating to ~550km/h with 3000prm

 

-hard left turn, bleeding speed, trying to ride at the edge of stall

 

-continuous left turns with 3000rpm at ~300km/h, keeping VSI around 0, no rudder input

 

-continuous right turns with 3000rpm at ~300km/h, keeping VSI around 0, no rudder input

 

-accelerating with 3250/mw50

-hard left turn

 

-continuous left turns with 3250rpm/mw50 at ~300km/h, keeping VSI around 0, no rudder input

 

-continuous right turns with 3250rpm/mw50 at ~300km/h, keeping VSI around 0, no rudder input

 

-accelerating with 3250/mw50 to 500km/h

-pulling up vertically

-throttle idle at 120-150km/h

-accelerating with 3250/mw50 to ~560km/h, pulling hard

 

 

Findings:

Dora behaves identical in DCS 1.5.8 and DCS 2.5.6 in the tested areas, turn rates, acceleration. The differences diminish in the error of measurement.

It doesn't look like anything changed in the Dora's FM since 1.5.8 (End of 2017)

 

 

 

 

 

Video playback is 4x fast forward and contains both testruns.

1.5.8 first part, 2.5.6 second part

 

 

 

Mustang comparison 1.5.8 // 2.5.6 will follow soon.

 

 

Attachments: Zipped Tacview tracks

 

 

 

 

p.s. I don't like to Dogfight in the Dora. But ED didn't change its FM.

 

The graphs are obviously different. Dora in 2.5.6 is loosing speed much faster. Which agrees with what everybody said.

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Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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Thank you, finally something tangible instead of crap spewed by persons unmentioned :thumbup: Waiting in earnest for the Mustang test as well. Thanks again. S!

 

Stop with this nonsense, please. If you have something objective to say, say it. Otherwise refrain from further comments. Thank you.

Specs:

Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080

 

Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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No, I most likely won't refrain from further commenting, and certainly not on your say-so. Now, is there anything else I can help you with?


Edited by msalama

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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How fast does a real P51 fly near the ground?

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51d-na-46-130.html

 

These calculations were prepared in connection with a comparison of the P-51D and P-51H airplane. Considerable effort was expended to achieve agreement between flight test and calculated results, and the data presented represent good agreement with most of the flight test results.

 

SUMMARY OF CALCULATED PERFORMANCE

Note: Performance figures are based on N.A.C.A. standard atmospheric conditions and gross weight as given in item (2) except as noted.

 

 

(1) Loading Condition Fighter

 

(2) Gross Weight - Take-Off 9611 lb.

 

(3) Fuel Load 180 gal.

 

(4) Wing Loading 41.2 lb./ft.2

 

(5) Maximum Speed – War Emergency Power

(3000 RPM. – 67" Hg. M.P.)

 

At Sea Level 368 MPH

At Low Blower A.C.A.* 414 MPH/11,300 ft.

At High Blower A.C.A.* 440 MPH/24,500 ft.

 

(6) Maximum Speed – Military Rating

(3000 RPM – 61" Hg. M.P.)

 

At Sea Level 355 MPH

At Low Blower A.C.A.* 412 MPH/13,300 ft.

At High Blower A.C.A.* 435 MPH/26,200 ft.

 

(7) Maximum Speed – Normal Power

(3000 RPM – 46" Hg. M.P.)

 

At Sea Level 312 MPH

At Low Blower A.C.A.* 380 MPH/15,200 ft.

At High Blower A.C.A.* 409 MPH/28,500 ft.

 

From P51D manual:

"The Type D-10 Manifold Pressure Indicator is a vaporproof, absolute-pressure instrument. The gauge

measures pressure in inches of mercury (inHg) and is graduated from 10 to 75 inHg. The face is

scaled to 1 inHg. The green range indicates the normal operating range of 26-36 inHg. The red line

indicates full military power of 61 inHg. When running in War Emergency Power, the manifold

pressure can be increased to a maximum of 67 inHg."

 

The video is showing 71 inHg and ~400mph!

 

Other data comparison

 

=====================================================================================

Fw-190 D-9 Statistics:

 

Engine: Junkers Jumo 213A1 with MW-50 boost.

Power: 2,240 HP.

Max. Speed: 704 km/h. (438 mph.)

Max. Climb: 1110 m/min (3,642 ft/min.)

Empty Weight: 3,490 kg. (7,694 lbs.)

Loaded Weight *Clean*: 4,293 kg. (9,464 lbs.)

Max. Weight: 4,839 kg. (10,670 lbs.)

Wing-Span: 10.50 m. (34.4 ft.)

Wing-Area: 18.3 sq.m. (197 sq.ft.)

Armament: 2x 13mm HMG's (MG 131) 2x 20mm cannons (MG 151/20).

 

Fw-190 D-9 Aerodynamic statistics:

 

Wing-loading *Loaded*: 234.59 kg/sq.m. (48 lbs/sq.ft.)

Wing Aspect-Ratio: 6.02.

Airfoil: NACA 23015.3 - NACA 23009.

Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 15.3% Tip= 9% .

Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.52 .

 

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 154.33 kg/sq.m. (31.5 lbs/sq.ft.)

Power-loading *Loaded*: 1.91 kg/hp. (4.22 lbs/hp.)

 

Fw-190 D-9 Additional features:

 

-Bubble-canopy Flettner Tabs.

-Inclined seat position for better G-load resistance "Kommandogerat".

====================================================================================

 

P-51D Mustang Statistics:

 

Engine: Packard Merlin V-1650-7.

Power: 1,790 HP.

Max.Speed: 703 km/h (437mph).

Max. Climb: 1011 m/min. (3,320 ft/min)

Empty Weight: 3,466 kg. (7,641 lbs.)

Loaded Weight *Clean*: 5,034 kg. (11,100 lbs.)

Max. Weight: 5,489 kg. (12,100 lbs.)

Wing-Span: 11.3 m. (37.07 ft.)

Wing-Area: 21.64 sq.m. (233 sq.ft.)

Armament: 6x .50 cal HMG's (M2).

 

P-51D Mustang Aerodynamic statistics:

 

Wing-Loading *Loaded*: 232.62 kg/sq.m. (47.6 lbs/sq.ft.)

Wing Aspect-Ratio: 5.81 .

Airfoil: "Laminar" NAA/NACA 45-100 - NAA/NACA 45-100.

Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.8 or 15% Tip= 12%.

Wing CL-max: 1.28 .

 

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 181.73 kg/sq.m. (37.18 lbs/sq.ft.)

Power-loading *Loaded*: 2.81 kg/hp. (6.2 lbs/hp.)

======================================================================================


Edited by amazingme

Specs:

Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080

 

Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

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No, I most likely won't refrain from further commenting, and certainly not on your say-so. Now, is there anything else I can help you with?

 

You have already admitted that you play PvE, mainly ground attack and you are not an experieneced online dogfighter. You also proved your abilities to not jam Dora's guns. In other words you don't push her to the limit. So if there were minor changes you wouldn't notice them. Why are you realy disscussing here?

 

I can't say if there were amy changes to the flight model but the test doesn't seem to be reliable. What is bothering me is that Dora remains at disadventage compared to enemies, which is not completly historicaly correct.

 

@masalama, if you would like misinterpret me again, I shall add that I never said I can't fly Dora well.

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