[NO BUG]Cannot trim out roll when F16 is asymmetrically configured

[deadpool]

Do you use your mouse wheel left handed too? ;)

 

IRL a pilot would have muscle memory as to where the trim wheel is and would use the left (throttle) hand to operate the wheel (probably without even looking down, or of looking down, only to locate the wheel while operating it 'head up').

 

 

I bound it to a knob and I can tell you that trimming this plane is still worse than any other Gen3 or Gen4 plane I have flown.

 

You have more success trimming a F-14, MiG-29 or Su-27.

 

Look down to write down a nine liner and you will start rolling. It's really tedious and I am just waiting for someone to find the LUA settings on how to make the TRIM button things about 0.20x as potent as they are now. So that you can trim the plane like you can trim any other plane in DCS or how you can trim it in any other sim.

[SpaceMonkey037]

TRIM not realistic.

 

In dcs trim is modelled in "clicks". You can click one time to the right, and one time to the left and hit the exact same trim setting. This makes it so that it is IMPOSSIBLE (not possible in any way) to get a perfect trim setting if you have a TGP mounted on the cheek station since this will provide asymmetrical weight that does not match the trims "clicks". This means that you might have one trim that constantly banks to the right, and if you just tap the left wing down trim for one nano second you will hit a "click" that is constantly banking to the left. This means that isn't possible to "trim it out". In the real plane trim is a "slider", meaning that it is almost impossible to hit the same trim setting twice. You can think of it like trim is measured in seconds. One second right wing down and one second plus one millisecond to the right are two different trims, while in dcs it would go in "clicks" so that one second trim right wing down and one second plus one millisecond will result in the same trim setting. This is extremely annoying as you will always have a bad trim if you fly with the TGP mounted. This should be changed.

[randomTOTEN]

The Pod also adds asymmetrical drag.

 

You need to compensate for that with the rudder. Your point about trim clicks is valid, your point about it being "impossible to trim" is not. There are multiple threads on this (4+). Search for them. I have posted multiple tracks where I trim the aircraft for hands off fight for 40+ seconds without major heading/roll deviations.

 

It is in fact possible.

[Sharpe_95]

In dcs trim is modelled in "clicks". You can click one time to the right, and one time to the left and hit the exact same trim setting. This makes it so that it is IMPOSSIBLE (not possible in any way) to get a perfect trim setting if you have a TGP mounted on the cheek station since this will provide asymmetrical weight that does not match the trims "clicks". This means that you might have one trim that constantly banks to the right, and if you just tap the left wing down trim for one nano second you will hit a "click" that is constantly banking to the left. This means that isn't possible to "trim it out". In the real plane trim is a "slider", meaning that it is almost impossible to hit the same trim setting twice. You can think of it like trim is measured in seconds. One second right wing down and one second plus one millisecond to the right are two different trims, while in dcs it would go in "clicks" so that one second trim right wing down and one second plus one millisecond will result in the same trim setting. This is extremely annoying as you will always have a bad trim if you fly with the TGP mounted. This should be changed.

 

This is a well known 'issue' (see below, excluding your thread) with multiple requests for a fix/help/aid, although at the moment, EDs position is 'this is correct and functioning properly', but Newy is investigating it again.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=269568

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=259618

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=259652

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=253253&highlight=roll

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=262359&highlight=roll

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=251445&highlight=roll

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=246967&highlight=roll

 

 

randomToTEN says it is possible to trim it "for 40+ seconds without major heading/roll deviations", if you watch his vid this does require heads down fiddling with the the trim wheels and takes a significant amount of time to sort out (when compared to using the trim hat on the FA18 for example). Having tried it myself after he showed it to me I still cant get it to work (its like one of my clicks equals two or three of his?). As RT says, the trim is only correct "for 40 seconds +" (he is being modest here it lasts quite some time), but it is still not 'perfect' in terms of what we are 'used' to in other modules - to me it feels more like a 'hack' than a 'fix'/'correct operation'. The way RT trims it out (using yaw) does result in a diminished roll, but as a result it imparts yaw input to the aircraft trim so the aircraft is (ever so slightly) on the crab. However, I do recommend you watch his vid as it does show the 'art of the possible' as things currently stand, maybe it will work for you (hopefully as a temporary solution)? See link below (first page, a few posts down - thanks RT!):

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=269568

 

However, using the yaw trim to fix this issue of the TGP or some other asymmetric configuration does raise some questions:

1) If both FA18c and F16c are of the same generation and both fly by wire, why does it take so much effort to trim out in the F16 vs the FA18?

2) Why do we need to use yaw input to correct for asymmetric configurations on the F16 where the trim hat (roll) is all that is needed to fix such an issue in the FA18c?

 

I have spoken to a number of vastly experienced simmers (in some cases, RL pilots) ALL of whom say the F16 is just does not feel like it is behaving correctly in terms of trim when asymmetrically configured. When you compare it to other aircraft within its peer group that are also developed by ED (A10c, FA18c), it simply does not feel right/the same in terms of ability to trim the aircraft when loaded asymmetrically. This begs the question - why do other such modules (the FA18 being VERY similar in to the F16) not have this issue but the F16 does? I would add that I am not saying that the FA18c trims perfectly via the trim hat - just that it is much easier to get it close to perfect for much longer periods of time.

 

If we wanted to look at things in terms of 'pure realism' (a somewhat flawed argument but some like to go down this path), even IF this is normal behaviour for the F16, a RL pilot keeps their right hand on the stick and uses muscle memory/feel to adjust the trim wheels via the panel with their left hand, keeping their head up. Virtual pilots do not have this luxury unless they have a very advanced set up. IMHO the current situation therefore detracts from the 'immersive/realistic experience' (rather than adding to it) as it causes significant issues for the virtual pilot. The VP needs to look down, hand off stick, click things, look up, look back down, hand off stick, click things, rinse repeat. All this to still not perfectly achieve something that most of us are used to being able to do from the trim hat on the stick in any other module. This results in an 'emotional' and not a pleasant experience when trying to take off as a two ship in close echelon, or when flying in close echelon as a 4 ship, or when taking fuel from a tanker (either forming as a flight or on the boom as a single) to name but a few scenarios that in any other aircraft simply would not be a factor no matter how it was configured.

 

I have been virtual flying for over 25 years and I have never had an issue trimming any type of aircraft in any sim. I agree with you that (as things stand at the moment) the F16s trim functions (hat or wheel) seem too coarse to trim the F16 well (not perfectly, as I dont think 'perfect' can be truly achieved as you say) but to the same level of accuracy/stability as the A10c or the FA18c without some degree (pun intended) of noticeable roll and/or yaw remaining. It has actually got to the point where people I fly with choose not to fly with a TGP as it just makes the game un-enjoyable. I for one am in danger of getting an RSI in my wrist for the amount of constant correction the resulting drift causes having fired a single AMRAAM or loaded a TGP :-S

 

I am afraid for now all you can do is add your views and a +1 to the thread linked below and hope that either ED find/acknowledge an error in the module and fix the issue (there is still some hope for this) or (as per suggestions in the thread linked below) they show some degree of benevolence and put some kind of 'player aid' into the options for the sim for those of us that find ourselves unable to trim the aircraft and choose to fly the aircraft anachronistically.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=253253

 

-S

Edited May 22, 2020 by Sharpe_95

[deadpool]

Yeah, the F-16 is the only modern plane that requires human sacrifice, 10 minutes down in the pit to get trimmed.

 

The F-16 is also different from other planes of the similar generation in that the ACM radar modes are calculated by the amiga 500 fire computer, taking about 10 times longer than in similar planes.

[Dee-Jay]

The issue is obvious ... and the solution also is.

[Furiz]

Another thing, why is it that when I have equal load on both side that f16 tend to slowly roll right? I have to trim even with balanced load

[CobaltUK]

The Pod also adds asymmetrical drag.

 

You need to compensate for that with the rudder. Your point about trim clicks is valid, your point about it being "impossible to trim" is not. There are multiple threads on this (4+). Search for them. I have posted multiple tracks where I trim the aircraft for hands off fight for 40+ seconds without major heading/roll deviations.

 

It is in fact possible.

 

Proffering work arounds as if such were an adequate solution is not helpful in achieving proper fix. Just takes the pressure off the devs.

[Tiger-II]

It's not about what is possible or impossible, but what is accurate.

 

It does not sound accurate.

[Mira73]

The issue is obvious ... and the solution also is.

 

 

Do not use TGP ? :lol:

[Katj]

I think the problem is the total lack of lateral stability. I.e. if the aircraft ever so slightly off trim - it will start to roll. It won't stop at some (small) bank angle as a laterally stable aircraft would, it just continues to roll until you correct or fall out of the sky.

 

What do you guys think, am I on to something?

[Baz000]

Roll trim inconsistency

 

the roll trim in the Viper is acting very inconsistent and especially with it carrying TGP or having some kind of autopilot function on.

 

First track here: I enabled altitude hold autopilot, used the override to hold at 20,000 ft MSL and 300 kts with the throttle... I input some roll trim using the grey POV hat of my thrustmaster warthog stick and I am able to get the plane to stay wings level fairly easy without much roll trim or manual control on the stick ( I guess this may be because of the autopilot, but even with the autopilot engaged at the start you can see an un-commanded constant right bank because of not being trimmed)

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11JO4MIF75dDmHAPWxDuXcrqaBx63Pdhp/view?usp=sharing

 

same exact situation and mission except I fly manually with my hand on the stick without any autopilot functions engaged... Again, I set speed to 300 and altitude to 20,000 ft MSL except this time I am unable to get the aircraft trimmed to stay wings level in roll and the plane is constantly rolling either to the left or the right. It is almost like DCS is giving too much input in roll trim in either direction with just a tap of my trim hat on my stick. The only way I could hold level is either to constantly input left or right trim or to put constant pressure with my hand on the stick to hold level. I can hardly think this kind of behavior on a fly by wire computer controlled plane...

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d1JTsWsqS1vZBI4m6hltIxeRfIeIk_UU/view?usp=sharing

 

each time I was using my trim hat on the Thrustmaster warthog stick but similar behavior is happening using the rollers on the trim panel inside the cockpit as well...

[F16FLCS-SME]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=269568

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged.

 

thanks

[Glide]

I still suspect the Litening Pod is throwing off the flight model causing trim to be troublesome. Try your experiments with and without the pod.