Constantly loosing STT lock?

[r4y30n]

Oh yes, happened to me few times. PAL is excellent until it's PAL. After locking (my feeling, not knowledge) it becomes a regular P-STT with all the consequences and strange surprises. There is definetly something missed between the lines of Tomcat's program-code (or Jester code)

Yes, a PAL lock is P-STT

[Padre Pio]

5 hours ago, r4y30n said:

Yes, a PAL lock is P-STT

it should be. What more should be, this P-STT locked from PAL should stay P-STT until you give Jester a clear command  to change it (to PD-STT for example) or just to break a lock. What I am afraid of, and not only me as I can see, we do not exactly know what happens in "post-PAL" STT when you are nearby 10-15nm distance from the target. To be precise, my 'sepcial option' is set to off.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Padre Pio

[DSplayer]

On 1/17/2022 at 12:55 PM, IronMike said:

We've done a MP test for the new aim54 changes this weekend and I used PAL several times and it held lock steady as can be.

What new AIM-54 changes do we have in store for us if you don't mind me asking?

[IronMike]

1 minute ago, DSplayer said:

What new AIM-54 changes do we have in store for us if you don't mind me asking?

Adjusting new weapon lua params to match the performance again, which with the recent lua changes has made the aim54 over-perform, particularly on fly out.

[mattag08]

On 1/17/2022 at 2:55 PM, IronMike said:

We've done a MP test for the new aim54 changes this weekend and I used PAL several times and it held lock steady as can be.

What exactly is your MP testing methodology? Most of the MP bugs that don't appear in SP don't manifest until there are 30+ clients.

Also most seem multicrew related and need a human pilot and RIO to reproduce. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by mattag08

[IronMike]

23 hours ago, mattag08 said:

What exactly is your MP testing methodology? Most of the MP bugs that don't appear in SP don't manifest until there are 30+ clients.

Also most seem multicrew related and need a human pilot and RIO to reproduce. 

 

We have our methodology, and this isnt about bugs that appear in this or that environment, but missile performance, which is unrelated to such things. In general if I say MP test it means that we bring as many of our testers together as available - to test whatever we want tested in between multiple players. Depending on topic to be tested and availability 30+ clients is possible. We have around 60 testers on our team.

[captain_dalan]

On 1/17/2022 at 9:11 PM, near_blind said:

Are you sure you're actually locking your target? Fun thing about PAL: it can and will lock onto chaff bundles which will then disappear after a moment as they dissipate. You can verify with TCS, the other easy tell is an aircraft will usually have some relative motion, chaff is stationary. 

Statistical sample of ONE by now, but it appears this has been the case. During a recent engagement i have left the TCS on, and punched PAL. The radar did attach itself to something, and in the short sub-second time interval before the lock broke, the TCS showed nothing but clear sky 

[TOMCATZ]

Hi,

 

I really don't know what Jester is doing but in fact I lost EVERY lock on target when I tried to use the Sparrow. Doesn't matter of range, altitude and the targets were all times hot and nearly at the same alt or higher. 

So pretty typical is: lock on (STT) , Fox 1 , Jester click some thing and telling "Damned I lost the target!" , visual, Fox 2, Fox 2,  Fox 2 ....  

[near_blind]

1 hour ago, TOMCATZ said:

So pretty typical is: lock on (STT) , Fox 1 , Jester click some thing and telling "Damned I lost the target!" , visual, Fox 2, Fox 2,  Fox 2 ....  

Same questions from the beginning of the thread apply. Which STT? Is automatic PDSTT -> PSTT enabled? Are you sure the bandits were hot and you didn't just have closure on them? A Tacview or something showing what the target is doing couldn't hurt. 

[TOMCATZ]

Yes-  automatic PDSTT -> PSTT is enabled. I think that TacView could not show the problem. But to be honest- Jester is doing his dark magic in the backseat and I do not understand completely what he is doing. For the AIM54 in TWS everything is fine and I really enjoy Jesters comments and work. I will not miss him. But shooting a AIM7 seems to be impossible because every time he do something (because I hear him clicking something and the mode seems to be switched) and finally I hear the typical "I lost lock" from Jester. 

So should I disengage these automatic-function and everything is fine? 

Edited January 25, 2022 by TOMCATZ

[draconus]

38 minutes ago, TOMCATZ said:

So should I disengage these automatic-function and everything is fine? 

Only if you want to decide for yourself if and when to change the STT mode.

Since the chaff can now steal the lock it wouldn't be Jester's fault for losing the lock. You can jump to the back seat and check for yourself. But I never saw any announcement or a patch  note about chaff behavior changes - and it is a big deal as the chaff releasing was just generating the random increase of chance for losing the lock.

[near_blind]

14 hours ago, TOMCATZ said:

Yes-  automatic PDSTT -> PSTT is enabled. I think that TacView could not show the problem. But to be honest- Jester is doing his dark magic in the backseat and I do not understand completely what he is doing. For the AIM54 in TWS everything is fine and I really enjoy Jesters comments and work. I will not miss him. But shooting a AIM7 seems to be impossible because every time he do something (because I hear him clicking something and the mode seems to be switched) and finally I hear the typical "I lost lock" from Jester. 

So should I disengage these automatic-function and everything is fine? 

The reason I don't find the automatic transition reliable and recommend disabling it, is it doesn't take into account the pertinent factors of the engagement. HB have modelled that when switching from PDSTT to PSTT, the further to the left or right of centerline the radar lock is, and the lower it is from the horizon, the more likely that the PSTT transition will drop the lock, target closure and aspect may also play a role. Jester does not take azimuth or elevation into account when making his decision to switch modes, he merely uses range. If I'm guiding a Sparrow with STT, at the ranges where jester wants to switch modes automatically, I am usually deep in a crank (the target is off to one side), and it is almost a guarantee that the lock will be dropped. 

Now.

I'm not saying disabling it will magically solve all your issues. Manually setting it means you are now responsible for keeping track of what mode your radar is in, and when you want to switch it, and all of those aforementioned issues still exist, but I find I am a better judge of when to make that transition than jester is. 

 

14 hours ago, draconus said:

Since the chaff can now steal the lock it wouldn't be Jester's fault for losing the lock. You can jump to the back seat and check for yourself. But I never saw any announcement or a patch  note about chaff behavior changes - and it is a big deal as the chaff releasing was just generating the random increase of chance for losing the lock.

A dev can correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall this behavior being present since the release of the module. It's just relatively rare as once established, PSTT is usually pretty reliable. I haven't done substantive testing into what causes it, but I seem to notice it when the target closure rate is very low, and they are chaffing heavily. E.G. I was shooting at a MiG-29 the other day that attempted to defeat a Sparrow by doing a hammerhead (that is nose pointed straight up, no/very limited horizontal speed) while dumping chaff. Lost pulse lock, and then the next three sweeps of PAL locked onto chaff bundles.

[GumidekCZ]

The issue with AIM-7 and silly Jester loosing lock when automaticly switching PDSTT -> PSTT, it is still there.
Simple question to @IronMike , if this will be fixed or tuned in future, or is OK according to you.

[captain_dalan]

28 minutes ago, GumidekCZ said:

The issue with AIM-7 and silly Jester loosing lock when automaticly switching PDSTT -> PSTT, it is still there.
Simple question to @IronMike , if this will be fixed or tuned in future, or is OK according to you.

You can always disable this in the F-14 special options. 

[GumidekCZ]

9 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

You can always disable this in the F-14 special options. 

I know, thanks. But would be nice, if automatic PSTT enabled,  Jester not constantly loosing lock.

[DSplayer]

1 hour ago, GumidekCZ said:

I know, thanks. But would be nice, if automatic PSTT enabled,  Jester not constantly loosing lock.

It's an AWG-9 thing since he basically just presses the P-STT button. Same thing happens if you're a human RIO.

[Swordsman422]

I just try to avoid this situation by never using a Fox 1 missile as a BVR weapon. If they're within 10 miles, I switch to P-STT, flip the ACM switch, and position for a Sparrow shot. If they're in the transition zone where the missile might not reach them before Jester would flip to P-STT himself, it's not worth the risk of a wasted shot.

That said, if an AIM-7 is being guided by ownship, it would be nice if Jester refrained from making the switch to P-STT until the TTI + a margin has run out.

[captain_dalan]

I actually prefer not having the P-STT automatically switched for me. There are specific circumstances in which i want PD or P and i like to reserve those decisions to myself

[IronMike]

On 7/29/2022 at 1:51 AM, GumidekCZ said:

The issue with AIM-7 and silly Jester loosing lock when automaticly switching PDSTT -> PSTT, it is still there.
Simple question to @IronMike , if this will be fixed or tuned in future, or is OK according to you.

To quote Goose: I hate it when he does that. In other words, I have automatic switching disabled. When I go for any aim7 shot within 40nm (I rarely fire outside of 15 keep in mind), I always have him lock, then switch to PSTT immediately. PSTT within 40 is pretty rock solid, I haven't had a guy shake that lock on me yet.

That said, it is not really Jester's fault for losing the lock in transition, but a limitation of the AWG-9 under certain circumstances. SARH shots usually involve lots of maneuvering, so as @near_blind mentioned above: if your maneuvering is unfavorable, or the bandit's aspect, or any of that sorts, Jester currently has no way of telling that the situation indeed is unfavorable. He just switches at a certain range. So you helping him understand when to switch, aka actively commanding him to switch, is helping yourself.

In the course of Jester overhaul this is certainly an item we will revisit, as right now it is too rudimentary and dull imo. I think we can make him more clever in this regard.

For the time being I second that disabling the option to have him switch automatically is indeed preferable.

In fact, on a second thought I am thinking now that we should remove this option until the Jester overhaul altogether, seeing how it is the prime source of players being under the impression that "Jester constantly loses lock."