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BFM Mission 1 Help


gearjammer1

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I've spent a fair amount of time studying the right way to BFM in the Hornet. Videos, books articles. One circle fights. Lead turning. Trying to keep them in sight etc. I honestly can't seem to even get behind a Mig-21 on the first mission. I have the cheat highlights on and I still lose him.

Can someone suggest some basic things to do that helped them get the hang of this? It's so frustrating to really not see much progress. I try to anticipate the turn at the merge then turn to make the one circle fight that the hornet is supposedly good at. But I can't seem to even make that work. What should i do when we merge again? Will this get me on his six or just give me a snap shot as we pass?

I appreciate the help on such a basic question. I've always shied away from BFM because I just can't seem to get it. I can land on the carrier, refuel, drop bombs....but man it'd be sweet to make some turns and get a gun kill. :joystick:

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Are you winning the first one-circle? I.E. do you get your nose on him before he gets his nose on you? If you’re winning the one-circle, you have two options - take a snapshot across his canopy as he passes your nose and/or convert to a two-circle fight by rolling 180 as he’s about to cross your nose and turning.

Intel Core i7-8700K @ 5.0 GHz // Nvidia GTX 1080Ti // 32 GB DDR4 RAM // 1 TB SSD

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I sometimes get embarrassed by the MiG 21. Are you using Track IR or VR? For me the biggest step forward was using TrackIR (actually my home made version using Open Track), I hardly ever lose sight now, I think that is key. You can’t really apply any game plan if you can’t see him.

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Are you winning the first one-circle? I.E. do you get your nose on him before he gets his nose on you? If you’re winning the one-circle, you have two options - take a snapshot across his canopy as he passes your nose and/or convert to a two-circle fight by rolling 180 as he’s about to cross your nose and turning.

 

Sometimes I win the first circle but usually see him too late and can't get my nose to bear. So i guess to keep in the one circle i just keep pulling around again unless he changes his direction. Like climbs or dives. I watched a bunch of youtube videos of people doing that mission today online and they make it look so easy.

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I sometimes get embarrassed by the MiG 21. Are you using Track IR or VR? For me the biggest step forward was using TrackIR (actually my home made version using Open Track), I hardly ever lose sight now, I think that is key. You can’t really apply any game plan if you can’t see him.

 

Ya i've got a track IR setup. I've been trying to dial it in and i've got the sentitivity and dead zone pretty good but it's still a real challenge to keep them in view and not stall or gain excessive speed while turning and tracking.

 

Maybe i need to set up various scenarios where i'm behind the bandit and it's progressively more off angle to me to get use to tracking.

 

Any other planes people recommend dogfighting that would be easier to start. I just found out the Mig-21 is almost 1:1 thrust! Makes it tougher than i thought...

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Sometimes I win the first circle but usually see him too late and can't get my nose to bear. So i guess to keep in the one circle i just keep pulling around again unless he changes his direction. Like climbs or dives. I watched a bunch of youtube videos of people doing that mission today online and they make it look so easy.

 

 

Don’t keep pulling around - if you’re winning, you must roll 180 and pull. It’ll be a 2 circle fight if the bandit continues in the same direction, or another 1 circle if he also reverses. Either way, you’ll start the second round with an angular advantage. Don’t just pull in the same direction and come all the way around the circle.

Intel Core i7-8700K @ 5.0 GHz // Nvidia GTX 1080Ti // 32 GB DDR4 RAM // 1 TB SSD

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At the merge you see him. Don't take your eyes off him. If you turn and then look for him you have a good chance of losing him. You can make the turn without looking at your plane. Keep your eyes on him from the merge and don't take them off. Fly your plane while you continue to look at him. That's what he's doing to you.

Buzz

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Don’t keep pulling around - if you’re winning, you must roll 180 and pull. It’ll be a 2 circle fight if the bandit continues in the same direction, or another 1 circle if he also reverses. Either way, you’ll start the second round with an angular advantage. Don’t just pull in the same direction and come all the way around the circle.

 

Ok cool, that makes sense now. If I gained some angle on him then reversing is the shortest turn to get back to his six. The other thing i read that i hadn't realized before is i need to give the bandit some off set and potentially start the turn before the merge to gain angles on him too. I'll have to practice that more.

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At the merge you see him. Don't take your eyes off him. If you turn and then look for him you have a good chance of losing him. You can make the turn without looking at your plane. Keep your eyes on him from the merge and don't take them off. Fly your plane while you continue to look at him. That's what he's doing to you.

 

That takes a bunch of practice i guess? Do most people turn on the JHMCS to at least give them airspeed? I've noticed trying to look at the hud again it's usually off center so i have to click reset view. then if my head wasn't centered now i've got a weird offset for looking left or right. I seem to remember some people saying they never have to recenter their view. Is that common?

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Yes use the JHMCS for airspeed information.

 

 

Finally ! I was missing this very important information about the essence of speed management from all the previous "pull or don't pull" replys (no pun intended). A two circle fight is when the two airplanes running in the same direction (both counterclockwise or both clockwise, like chasing each other's tail). You want to catch up with the other, flying around the same circle that the opponent flies. This is a turn RATE fight, where the aircraft that can produce a better angular speed in a turn (around the circle) wins at the end. The F-18 (and many other fighters by the way) has the best turning rate at the so called corner speed, which is around 330-350'ish knots. If you just pull like crazy, you will just bleed off speed, and below corner speed you loose turn rate significantly (just as above corner speed also). So in a 2 circle fight, DO NOT try to just pull your nose on him ASAP no matter what, becasue the high AoA gives you a huge drag, and you will loose speed instantly, and he will just fly around you laughing. Turn on your helmet sight, and while looking at him all the time, you can check your speed at any moment, no need to "go back inside" to check speed. So push full AB, and pull the stick only as much that your speed doesn't go below 350. When it is down to 350, release the stick just a bit, until you see the speed coming back up to 350, then pull again just a bit, try to stabilize your speed around 350 by adjusting the stick pull. Throttle always maxed out to AB. (Only time when you can come off AB is if you go down vertical in a Split S, or downside of a loop, and do not want to accelerate any more).

 

A 1 circle fight is a turn RADIUS fight, the winner will be the one with the smaller turn radius (obviously, at lower speed, than corner speed). You want to fall in behind him by flying smaller circle than him. So at the merge, if you look back, and you see the other cockpit "looking at you", and your noses are turning "towards each other" and not "away from each other", that's gonna be a 1 circle fight, where you want to go behind him by being slower to avoid overshoot, and not by "gaining turn angles" faster, as you do in the 2 circle fight. This is gonna be a row of siccors, reducing your "progress forward in space" by going rather in zig-zags, trying to settle behind the other aircraft. Here the timing of the reversal will be very important, you need to anticipate his flight path, and be "ahead" of him in the game. Here you need to see his reversals.


Edited by Razor18
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I've spent a fair amount of time studying the right way to BFM in the Hornet. Videos, books articles. One circle fights. Lead turning. Trying to keep them in sight etc. I honestly can't seem to even get behind a Mig-21 on the first mission. I have the cheat highlights on and I still lose him.

Can someone suggest some basic things to do that helped them get the hang of this? It's so frustrating to really not see much progress. I try to anticipate the turn at the merge then turn to make the one circle fight that the hornet is supposedly good at. But I can't seem to even make that work. What should i do when we merge again? Will this get me on his six or just give me a snap shot as we pass?

I appreciate the help on such a basic question. I've always shied away from BFM because I just can't seem to get it. I can land on the carrier, refuel, drop bombs....but man it'd be sweet to make some turns and get a gun kill. :joystick:

 

First of all, what you're describing is High Aspect BFM. The reality is that you are skipping over a huge amount of fundamental learning steps to be able to effectively fight a HABFM fight. HA BFM is very tough if you don't have the rest of the BFM fundamentals down first. Things such as recognizing turn circles, turn circle entries, turning room, heading crossing angles, Angle off, Lead, lag, pure, etc, etc. Going right into 1 circle vs 2 circle fights without understanding and more importantly practicing those basics likely means you're going to keep getting killed and on the one occasion you get lucky - it will reinforce bad habit patterns.

 

Highly suggest you start with the fundamentals of BFM first. IRL, most air force A/A training programs will start with Offensive BFM with you as the attacker at various ranges such as 9000, 6000 and 3000 feet BEHIND the bandit at his six. The reason for these ranges is so that you learn to recognize and fly to the correct turn circle (TC) of the bandit. 9K feet is outside of a 4th gen fighter TC and you need to figure out how to drive to his TC and then turn. 6K is starting on the TC and 3K has you inside the TC. All of these exercises teach you how to max perform the jet in relation to the bandit. It also teaches you how to employ weapons (RDR, IR and guns) at various ranges and bandit aspects.

 

Once you master this - then turn it around and set up the engagements with the bandit behind you at these ranges (3/6/9K feet) and then you have to learn how to keep from getting shot.

 

Finally when you can do both of these well, then and only then should you be thinking about HABFM.

 

In terms of HABFM - I don't like it when people say things "Always fly the Hornet 1 circle and the Viper 2 circle" because of the rate vs radius fight. As always in everything - IT DEPENDS. There are times to fight 1 or 2 circles. Much of that is driven by the bandits capability as well as your energy state and the bandits energy state at the merge. It also depends on if the bandit is giving you turning room or not and what the heading crossing angles (HCA) are at the merge. If it's a truly neutral merge with equal energy states and angles - then the last person to turn determines whether its a 1 or 2 circle fight. You might not get the choice.

 

My suggestion is to use the ME to set up a series of simple Offensive BFM sets at the 3 ranges. Start with 9k first and run them until you can consistently enter his turn circle and employ weapons. Then do the same for 6k and then 3K. Each one will present different problems to solve. Then do the same for defensive where you put the bandit at your 6 and attempt to survive to the floor.

 

Then once proficient at O and D BFM, set up the HABFM sets with the bandit at say 3 nm off your nose 180 deg out, equal airspeed and altitude. Practice both 1 and 2 circle fights against various bandits. Start with something easy like a MIG-23 and then work up to more modern aircraft. PRACTICE, PRACTICE PRACTICE!! It will be a lot more fun if you understand why you're doing specific maneuvers.

 

One last thing, set yourself to invulnerable while you're learning. Expect to get shot for while until you get good. You will hear the missile clang off your jet, so you will still be able to tell when you got shot, but at least you can continue fighting and learning without having to reset each time.


Edited by Notso

System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB

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Any written material you recommend to look into? Or maybe YT videos detailing these things even deeper?

 

 

THX

 

AS others have mentioned, there is this: https://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599 for $45

 

and the "Art of the Kill" on YT.

 

This is probably the most comprehensive book on the topic in an unclassified forum: https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-826.pdf. I would read this first.

System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB

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Some terms and definitions that might be useful:

 

Turn rate and radius are simple functions of airspeed and G, regardless of airframe or engine.

Differences lie in the ability of an aircraft to pull G and sustain energy levels.

 

Energy definitions:

Instantaneous rate: The highest rate an aircraft can generate at the current airspeed. This usually implies a negative Ps.

Ps: Rate of energy loss or gain during a particular maneuver.

Sustained rate: The rate generated while maintaining current airspeed and altitude. Bleed rate: Similar to Ps. The amount of energy lost at a particular G-level.

System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB

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First of all, what you're describing is High Aspect BFM. The reality is that you are skipping over a huge amount of fundamental learning steps to be able to effectively fight a HABFM fight. HA BFM is very tough if you don't have the rest of the BFM fundamentals down first. Things such as recognizing turn circles, turn circle entries, turning room, heading crossing angles, Angle off, Lead, lag, pure, etc, etc. Going right into 1 circle vs 2 circle fights without understanding and more importantly practicing those basics likely means you're going to keep getting killed and on the one occasion you get lucky - it will reinforce bad habit patterns.

 

Highly suggest you start with the fundamentals of BFM first. IRL, most air force A/A training programs will start with Offensive BFM with you as the attacker at various ranges such as 9000, 6000 and 3000 feet BEHIND the bandit at his six. The reason for these ranges is so that you learn to recognize and fly to the correct turn circle (TC) of the bandit. 9K feet is outside of a 4th gen fighter TC and you need to figure out how to drive to his TC and then turn. 6K is starting on the TC and 3K has you inside the TC. All of these exercises teach you how to max perform the jet in relation to the bandit. It also teaches you how to employ weapons (RDR, IR and guns) at various ranges and bandit aspects.

 

Once you master this - then turn it around and set up the engagements with the bandit behind you at these ranges (3/6/9K feet) and then you have to learn how to keep from getting shot.

 

Finally when you can do both of these well, then and only then should you be thinking about HABFM.

 

In terms of HABFM - I don't like it when people say things "Always fly the Hornet 1 circle and the Viper 2 circle" because of the rate vs radius fight. As always in everything - IT DEPENDS. There are times to fight 1 or 2 circles. Much of that is driven by the bandits capability as well as your energy state and the bandits energy state at the merge. It also depends on if the bandit is giving you turning room or not and what the heading crossing angles (HCA) are at the merge. If it's a truly neutral merge with equal energy states and angles - then the last person to turn determines whether its a 1 or 2 circle fight. You might not get the choice.

 

My suggestion is to use the ME to set up a series of simple Offensive BFM sets at the 3 ranges. Start with 9k first and run them until you can consistently enter his turn circle and employ weapons. Then do the same for 6k and then 3K. Each one will present different problems to solve. Then do the same for defensive where you put the bandit at your 6 and attempt to survive to the floor.

 

Then once proficient at O and D BFM, set up the HABFM sets with the bandit at say 3 nm off your nose 180 deg out, equal airspeed and altitude. Practice both 1 and 2 circle fights against various bandits. Start with something easy like a MIG-23 and then work up to more modern aircraft. PRACTICE, PRACTICE PRACTICE!! It will be a lot more fun if you understand why you're doing specific maneuvers.

 

One last thing, set yourself to invulnerable while you're learning. Expect to get shot for while until you get good. You will hear the missile clang off your jet, so you will still be able to tell when you got shot, but at least you can continue fighting and learning without having to reset each time.

 

This is amazing advice thank you! I hadn't thought about how HABFM is like the final goal and that it can be broken down into easier steps. I'll start working on that and building up. It was really frustrating getting worked over and over haha. But this gives good steps to see progress.

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AS others have mentioned, there is this: https://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599 for $45

 

and the "Art of the Kill" on YT.

 

This is probably the most comprehensive book on the topic in an unclassified forum: https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-826.pdf. I would read this first.

 

This T-38 book is awesome, i really like the diagrams and explanations in there! They actually have a great one circle and 2 circle definition. You imagine your turn around a pole and if you're both turning around the same pole it's 1 circle. Duh haha. Makes it so much easier to recognize one vs two.

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Also don't be too embarrassed by the MiG-21. Its flight model is greatly exaggerated in its own favor.

 

 

But first and foremost in any case, having and maintaining a tally is crucial.

 

 

 

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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Also don't be too embarrassed by the MiG-21. Its flight model is greatly exaggerated in its own favor.

 

 

But first and foremost in any case, having and maintaining a tally is crucial.

 

 

 

v6,

boNes

 

Thanks that's good to know. Someone mentioned Mig-23 as a good easy opponent. Any other recommendations? When i try to search for planes to fly against i just get a bunch of results about the easiest planes to learn to fly....

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But first and foremost in any case, having and maintaining a tally is crucial.

 

 

 

v6,

boNes

 

THIS^^ "Lose sight, lose the fight". Which IMHO is why VR is SOOOO much better for this. :music_whistling:

System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB

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I'm so pumped! Using all the tips here I'm finally getting that guns shot! 1 min 55 seconds to kill in HABFM against the Su-30. I went 6 for 6 tonight against him. It's on random skill level and I'm starting to be able to tell roughly which skill level it is. I'm weaning off labels which is adding another level of difficulty to finding the bandit. It's so satisfying to take the Su-30 down to those slow speeds and watch it struggle to get away just as the Hornet is in it's wheel house and swings the nose around to gun him down! Thanks again all!

killshot.png.48e300618c3aeb6f0bc851359c43c188.png

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I'm so pumped! Using all the tips here I'm finally getting that guns shot! 1 min 55 seconds to kill in HABFM against the Su-30. I went 6 for 6 tonight against him. It's on random skill level and I'm starting to be able to tell roughly which skill level it is. I'm weaning off labels which is adding another level of difficulty to finding the bandit. It's so satisfying to take the Su-30 down to those slow speeds and watch it struggle to get away just as the Hornet is in it's wheel house and swings the nose around to gun him down! Thanks again all!

 

Nice!

System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB

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