VKB MK IV T-Rudder how work Virtual Brakes?

[Aviators]

As the title suggests, can anyone explain to me how this Virtual Brake works?

I currently own an MFG pedalboard.

Also how do you configure it on the various simulators?

DCS and XPlane?

[scath0]

I use joystick gremlin to configure it.

Basically the t-rudder only has 1 axis, rudder.

But in the software you can make it like when you press a button of your choice, while using rudder, it creates 2 new axis, one for each toebrake.

 

 

This post I found explains it better :

 

 

For Xplane I don't know, but in DCS you just need to assign the new axis to wheel brakes left and right for each plane, while holding the button you chose and moving the rudder.

 

 

The only drawback for me is that you cannot use both toebrakes at the same time, because once configured you press the button + left rudder for left brake, and button + right rudder for right brake.

[Aviators]

Thanks. this I wanted to know. Can you brake using two brakes? How can I brake while done in a taxy?

[scath0]

To brake both at the same time, you need to use another button or axis and bind it to wheel brake both. But you cannot brake both sides at the same time with the pedals.

What I use is :

 

 

Standard rudder axis : rudder

 

Rudder axis + button in joystick gremlin :

brake left when rudder to the left

brake right when rudder to the right

 

On warthog throttle I use the grey wheel (incr.-decr.) for wheel brake both, but you can instead use a button or a switch

 

 

It works okay, but I guess MFG are better in that regard.

In DCS it is only necessary for warbirds, especially FW190 and BF109.

For modern airplanes I just use the paddle switch on Warthog stick.

[XAiracobraX]

For me I was able to use the same button for "wheel brake both" that I chose in T-link to use the toe brakes axis. I confirmed using the controls overlay. When I just push the button it brakes both wheels, when I push the pedals in a direction it alters the axis to only brake in on the pressed on side (press rudder right and it brakes right wheel) when i move axis back to center still holding the button the brake distribution returns to even braking on both wheels. It meets my needs just fine.

[Sokol1_br]

As the title suggests, can anyone explain to me how this Virtual Brake works?

 

Downwload VKB T-Link software: http://ftp.vkb-sim.pro/Programms/T_link_v0_66_2.zip

Manual: http://ftp.vkb-sim.pro/Documentations/T_Link_En.pdf

 

Open (no install is required, just extract for a folder) and set a button in your joystick for press virtual brakes axes (L and R), what will brake both wheels simultaneous.

 

Then hit START/STOP for change STATUS: for SENDING DATA and minimize.

 

In game controls (e.g. DCS, X-PLane) assign this two virtual R and L axes for right and left wheel brakes (e.g. for A-10, F-18, P-51, Bf 109...)

Playing the games, press the joystick button for brake both wheels, or press the button and move rudder for R or L for brake just one wheel.

 

BTW - In the game IL2 Sturmovik: Great Battles T-Link is not required, because the game has this brake emulation native.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Sokol1_br

[Fri13]

My solution was with MCG PRO + Gunfighter Mk2:

 

1) In VKB own software set two virtual buttons to brake lever, one just to start and one at the end. You have axis + two buttons then simultaneously. Set the first button to activate at early as possible (you just need to basically touch the lever to activate it) and second at the end of axis (to not activate it easily when you normally brake).

 

2) In VKB own software set two (or three) zones of T-Rudder axis as buttons. You get left/right or left/center/right zones easily with 50/50 split or something like 45-10-45 split. Now you can have again axis + buttons same time in use.

 

Now depending the module, you can set different combinations for the axis on pedals and brake lever by using the virtual buttons as modifiers.

 

You can have western or soviet style brakes now with combination using pedals or grip, or even pedals+grip virtual buttons.

 

You don't need to press any other button than just use these two axis as they are virtual ones.

[SebastianR]

Hi. I use the normal axis for the rudder and two virtual axes for brakes using the same main axis. In general, when the brake operates at low speeds, the rudder has no interference and at high speeds it is the other way around. In airplanes with differential brake I use a joystick axis and in modern airplanes where the nws is activated manually, it does not interfere with me either. All the configuration I do from the vkb program.

[Aviators]

thank you all, so can I put the MFG Crosswind pedal aside and rely 100% on this one from VKB?

[scath0]

I could never make it work using T-link, but maybe it is because I don't have a vkb hotas, only the rudder. The software was having a hard time recognizing TM Warthog inputs. Maybe I will try again.

 

 

And because TMW "brake lever" is only a button, and not an axis like on Vkb and Virpil sticks, it make using it as wheel brake modifier a bit wonky. When you push rudder left or right, it brakes proportionally to how much rudder you apply, and when you keep the pedals centered it just apply full brakes in a matter of seconds, with no way of adjusting it.

 

 

Maybe I need to dig deeper, but to me the virtual toe brakes stuff still feels a bit off on the T-rudder. So if you fly a lot of WWII warbirds in dcs (where they do not offer a russian brake style like in IL2) it may not be for you.

 

 

But then again they are great rudder pedals, solid build, small footprint and pretty cheap. For DCS in general it is really good, just for WWII stuff it may not be as good as MFGs.

[tintifaxl]

Because I don't want to run one more program before flying, I have setup the vkb rudders to send a button at each end of the rudder axis. These I use for differential braking, to brake with both wheels I use the lever on the Warthog or MCG Pro stick.

 

 

Coming from the TM TPR rudders, I needed half an hour to adapt to the new way of wheel braking in the warbirds (mostly the Bf-109 at takeoff). For me the braking works just as good as with the TPRs.

Edited May 6, 2020 by tintifaxl
TPR != TRP

[Aviators]

For DCS in general it is really good, just for WWII stuff it may not be as good as MFGs.

 

 

And for XPlane? with B737/A320?

 

This would be an excellent topic for VKB to make a step by step instructional Youtube video of, using DCS and the Bf-109 or Spitfire.

 

+1!

[Sokol1_br]

I could never make it work using T-link, but maybe it is because I don't have a vkb hotas, only the rudder. The software was having a hard time recognizing TM Warthog inputs.

 

No, T-Link use is not dependent of other VKB controller than T-Rudder.

I have used T-Link with Thrustmaster T.16000-M and Saitek Cyborg joystick, pressing the virtual brakes in their buttons.

Perhaps you need update T-Rudder firmware.

 

So if you fly a lot of WWII warbirds in dcs (where they do not offer a russian brake style like in IL2) it may not be for you.

 

I have no issues in use T-Link for DS P-51, BF 109 and FW 190.

The software (T-Link) does what is necessary, brake one or the other wheel in taxiing maneuvers, which is a minimum fraction of the use of these aircraft.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Sokol1_br

[scath0]

Thanks Sokol, I tried again with a newer version of T-Link and firmware.

 

Now it works no problem with the Thrustmaster Warthog, much easier to use than when I first bought the T-rudder a few years ago.

But still, I think I will stay with joystick gremlin, first because you can configure a lot of controllers with it, and second because you can use brakes progressively, and with T-Link it makes them work in an on/off fashion, but maybe I did not configure it correctly.

 

 

But I agree, I am nitpicking, it works well enough for you to take it to the skies, where you spend most of the time anyways !

[Aviators]

would anyone be kind enough to post several videos of the various methods of operation?

[Jascha]

I tried setting up toe brakes for VKB Rudder Pedals with the use of modifies in DCS axis controls. For A-10C axis commands I used HOTAS Warthog slew push button as my modifier for the pedals axis X. Initially I wanted to have functionality where using the modifier and pressing the right VKB pedal will act as pressing of the wheel brake (left and right) in-game. It works but... not as intended. It turns out that after setting it up like this A-10C in-game acts as wheel brakes are being applied all the time (without me using VKB pedals at all) and when I use the combo modifier + right pedal it actually gradually releases the wheel brake in-game. I inverted the axis in axis tune options but all it changed was that this functionality has been assigned to the left VKB pedal.

Any idea how to correct this?

Edited July 19, 2022 by Jascha

[Sokol1_br]

T-Rudder axis, being a rudder control is always in 50% (middle position of the sensor), this is what cause the brake pressed in game when you hit the modifier.

In pedal with "toe brakes" the axis is a "slider" - like the throttle axis, without center position.

Try play with axis saturation - under wheel brake command in DCS controls; trying compensate this.       

BTW - When I set the twist axis of VKB Gladiator MK.II for be "wheel brakes" - I don't use twist rudder on stick, but T-rudder, so this axis are without use,

I face the same problem of wheel brakes being applied, so create a special calibration for this axis using DView, that set the 0 - 100% of the axis response

in the movement  50% - 0% of the sensor (twist for left).

But you can't use this solution, because need the axis unaltered for use as rudder control.

Ask in VKB forum for a profile for T-Rudder that create a new virtual axis with T-rudder movement 50% to 100% (T-Rudder for right), and then assign this new virtual axis + modifier for "wheel brakes".

 

 

[Jascha]

Thank you for your take on this. I tried tweaking the axis settings but I couldn't come up with anything close to what I initially hoped for (no rudder input = 0% brakes, full right pedal = 100% brakes). When I tick the slider box in axis tuning I don't see a  difference (rudder with no pedal input = 50% brakes).

For now I'd like to avoid using 3rd party software and see if this can be set in DCS only. With use of DCS in-game options - I don't think so, but maybe some lua editing could fix this (I have to ask around as probably not everyone monitors VKB controls forum).

It's interesting to notice, that when you let go of the modifier (slew push on Wartog throttle in my case) the brake input will remain in position according to pedal position when the modifier was released. So, modifier + max left pedal input would mean 0% brakes, release the modifier and no brakes position is "saved". Then when I apply brakes I use modifier + right pedal which operates brakes in range 50%-100% brake input. Then I just have to "reset" brake position with left pedal before releasing the modifier. Cumbersome, but maybe I could get used to it...

Edited July 19, 2022 by Jascha

[Sokol1_br]

6 hours ago, Jascha said:

It's interesting to notice, that when you let go of the modifier (slew push on Wartog throttle in my case) the brake input will remain in position according to pedal position when the modifier was released. 

 

Happens the same thing in iL-2: Sturmovik: Cliff of Dover BLITZ, a drawback of use an axis with modifier. You need educate yourself to release the modifier only after "reset" the axis.

[Jascha]

So I've tested the T-Link software after all (although I'd like to avoid software running in the background only for this...). No idea what I'm doing wrong but two virtual brake axes work for me like this: just pressing the T-Link Brake source button (no pedal input at all) acts as full brake:

Then pressing the left and right pedal decreases the brake input. Also - in T-Link window right brake indicator is left pedal and left brake indicator is right pedal.

Below, Brake Source Button in, LEFT pedal at 50%, RIGHT pedal - no input:

Now, in DCS I can invert axis and pedals will work correctly (i.e. virtual axis 0 to 100, instead of 100 to 0), but in this case letting go of the Brake source button will leave the brakes at 100% al the time.

I wonder if it's possible to leave the two virtual axes permanently enabled from the VKB profile configuration tool. But this software looks like you need a PhD in mathematics to use it.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Jascha

[Sokol1_br]

17 hours ago, Jascha said:

 No idea what I'm doing wrong but two virtual brake axes work for me like this: just pressing the T-Link Brake source button (no pedal input at all) acts as full brake:

 

This is how T-Link work, by pressing the assigned joystick button the two virtual axis goes for 100%.

Quote

 Then pressing the left and right pedal decreases the brake input. Also - in T-Link window right brake indicator is left pedal and left brake indicator is right pedal.

Below, Brake Source Button in, LEFT pedal at 50%, RIGHT pedal - no input:

 

Thus is correct, by moving the rudder for left, you keep the left wheel braked and release the brake on right wheel, so the plane turn left.

The pedal movement dont generate the brake force (like a "toe brakes"), but a "balance"  for the two brake axes pressed by the button on joystick. It's like (RL) Spitfire brakes work, the valve controlled by Rudder pedal bar vent the pressure in the opposite wheel.

Quote

I wonder if it's possible to leave the two virtual axes permanently enabled from the VKB profile configuration tool. But this software looks like you need a PhD in mathematics to use it.

 

Yes, you can set the two virtual axes in DevCFG software and save in T-Rudder Black Box firmware.

See this topic, the softwares mentioned are old, this was pre T-Link release; but with actual versions work in the same way. 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19016&p=206247&viewfull=1#post206247

So every time you move the T-Rudder for left or right, will press one of the two virtual axes - proportionally to rudder input (with T-Link joystick button is always pressed 100%).

See the pictures of Windows Games Controller there: https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2030-t-rudder-от-вкб/page/4/#elControls_180536_menu

Rudder pedal axis "X Rotation" is ~25% from right of the center position (50% - rudder centered), so the virtual "Y Rotation axis" is ~25% pressed. When the "X Rotation" reach 100% the "Y Rotation" will reach 100% too.

Notice that using T-Rudder standalone the name of axes will bey different, rudder axis  is X.  The above names is for a combo or T-Rudder integrated with some VKB joystick.

BTW - Just don't assign this axes to right/left brakes or wheel brakes without use (DCS) modifier button, or your take off runs can end in disaster.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Sokol1_br

[Sokol1_br]

9 hours ago, Jascha said:

Below, Brake Source Button in, LEFT pedal at 50%, RIGHT pedal - no input:

There's something strange with your pedal axis, this 25% in Right Brake vertical bar.

Here when I press the joy button for T-Link Brakes, the "Left brake" and "Right Brake" bars goes full (100%).

In Windows Game Controllers, notice the axis "Eixo Z" full pressed for the Right Brake (and the Y axes full down for Left Brake)

 

 

Now when I press rudder pedal for right, the axis "Eixo Z" goes for 0% as well in T-Link just one green line of vertical bar is lit.

 

Here no way to have 25% in the T-Link vertical bars (bakes), when the rudder balance goes (from center 50%) to ~57-58% (or 47-46%) T-Link Right Brake  (or left) goes immediately for 0%.

BTW - In DCS you need invert the axis of T-Rudder in rudder assignment?

This axis is calibrated? In (VKB) DevCfg look under Test tab. If need calibrate make this in DevCfg software, don't use Windows Game Controllers.

If yes you can invert this axis in (VKB) DevCfg software (firmware configurador), is the parameter "R"  - Physical data inversion in Profile.

Anyway make backup of the current profile before make changes, in Action > Save.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Sokol1_br

[Jascha]

@Sokol1_br

First of all, thank you for all your time. I appreciate your help.

16 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

This is how T-Link work, by pressing the assigned joystick button the two virtual axis goes for 100%.

I'm not sure what I'm missing but that's exactly the opposite how I want it to work! It amazes me that T-Link doesn't have the option to invert this.

Now, I don't fly warbirds much so I don't really need separate left and right pedal brakes, but if I would, I'd like it to work like this: when I press the Break Source Button (BSB) axes stay at 0%, and then applying left pedal input results in left brake force being applied from 0% to 100% and applying right pedal input results in right brake force being applied from 0% to 100%.

Now it works like this - press BSB = 100% brake force, applying left pedal input results in RIGHT brake force being decreased from 100% to 0% and applying right pedal input results in LEFT brake force being decreased from 100% to 0%. Everything is the other way around.

16 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

Thus is correct, by moving the rudder for left, you keep the left wheel braked and release the brake on right wheel, so the plane turn left.

I want to apply left pedal so I can turn left, not release right pedal to turn left. Or actually, to be specific, I want to bind left and right virtual axes so pressing left OR right pedal WITH modifier will result in BOTH brakes going from 0 to 100 (so plane won't turn), as in VKB you cant press two pedals at once.

Or at least I'd like to have an option to choose what setting I want.

BTW how about Gremlin? Can you set it up like this there?

16 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

Yes, you can set the two virtual axes in DevCFG software and save in T-Rudder Black Box firmware.

Thanks a lot for the link, I'll check it. Because ideally I want to have the virtual axes constantly on without any software running in the background and than use modifiers in DCS axis assign setup to bind them.

16 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

Rudder pedal axis "X Rotation" is ~25% from right of the center position (50% - rudder centered), so the virtual "Y Rotation axis" is ~25% pressed. When the "X Rotation" reach 100% the "Y Rotation" will reach 100% too.

Well, it looks promising but assuming rudder axis middle is full left 0, center 50, full right 100, when I apply 50% left pedal (so rudder axis goes from 50 to 25) I want virtual axis left brake to go from 0 to 50 (virtual axis matches the pedal input). Makes sense? So in your example X at ~25% from right should mean axis Y to be at ~50%.

16 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

BTW - Just don't assign this axes to right/left brakes or wheel brakes without use (DCS) modifier button, or your take off runs can end in disaster.

That's clear. But it won't matter if the virtual axis are constantly "on", if they are not assigned.

14 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

There's something strange with your pedal axis, this 25% in Right Brake vertical bar.

Here are step by step screenshots (axis X = rudder, Y = virtual axis for right pedal, Z = virtual axis for left pedal):

No input:

Only the Brake Source Button pressed:

Left pedal ~50% down:

Left pedal 100% down:

Right pedal ~50% down:

Right pedal 100% down:

14 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

BTW - In DCS you need invert the axis of T-Rudder in rudder assignment?

Yeah, but all it changed is in one version pressing the BSB resulted in 100% brakes applied and in the other releasing it resulted in 100% brakes (thus brakes being at 100% all the time).

14 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

This axis is calibrated? In (VKB) DevCfg look under Test tab. If need calibrate make this in DevCfg software, don't use Windows Game Controllers.

It is, afaik.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Jascha

[Sokol1_br]

3 hours ago, Jascha said:

 

 

Understand, this is better than I have, 0% or 100% only.

Could be because you are using Black Box controller - I use the old Tiny Box; and probable with this new controller you have brake force proportional rudder pedal input. 

So your only problem is the axes in 100% when you expect 0%, then using (VKB) DevCfg make a backup of actual profile and test inverting the rudder axis (as above).

If this solve the brake issue, but result in rudder inverted, you can fix rudder inverting in DCS controls.

[Jascha]

7 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

Understand, this is better than I have, 0% or 100% only.

What? But don't you use the twist axis from joystick? If it's an axis, the virtual brake axes should work the same (not like buttons).

7 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

So your only problem is the axes in 100% when you expect 0%, then using (VKB) DevCfg make a backup of actual profile and test inverting the rudder axis (as above).

Thanks. I'll try.