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VKB MK IV T-Rudder how work Virtual Brakes?


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8 hours ago, Jascha said:

What? But don't you use the twist axis from joystick? If it's an axis, the virtual brake axes should work the same (not like buttons).

Yes, but I use "half" of twist axis (left movement) of VKB Gladiator Mk.II for "wheel brakes", because in IL-2 Sturmovik: Great Battles this command work for any plane, regardless RL they use "toe brakes" or "British brakes", giving differential brakes when used combined with rudder movement.

Need use T-Link "virtual brakes" for DCS and IL-2 Sturmovik: Clod BLITZ planes that use "toe brakes" (Luftwaffe, USAAF...) to be able to taxi.

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@Sokol1_br Well, if you had permanently enabled virtual axes (one for left twist and the other for right twist) you could bind them both to "wheel brakes" (axis = both wheel brakes input) and corresponding wheel brakes (axis = left / right brake input) using two different modifiers. And that's my plan with T-Rudder. In DCS this certainly seems doable. I'm not sure for IL-2, as I haven't use it in pretty long time (can you set custom modifiers for axis there?).

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4 hours ago, Jascha said:

@Sokol1_br Well, if you had permanently enabled virtual axes (one for left twist and the other for right twist) you could bind them both to "wheel brakes" (axis = both wheel brakes input) and corresponding wheel brakes (axis = left / right brake input) using two different modifiers. 

Yes, It's a good alternative for use the twist axes, and give proportional brake for both system.

But the question is that create the virtual brake axis (just one for twist left) in (VKB) DevCfg was a "hit and miss" thing for me, took many attempts, re-flash firmware, so for don't risk in "broken" all again, just enable T-Link eventually is not big issue, I fly mostly British planes in WWII sims. 🙂 

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49 minutes ago, Sokol1_br said:

But the question is that create the virtual brake axis (just one for twist left) in (VKB) DevCfg was a "hit and miss" thing for me, took many attempts, re-flash firmware, so for don't risk in "broken" all again, just enable T-Link eventually is not big issue, I fly mostly British planes in WWII sims. 🙂 

Well the software is not very user friendly. I know I'm close, but can't figure this out. This post from il2 forum you mentioned is exactly I'm looking for, but there is no explanation how to do it! I'll try asking on VKB forum, although it's a bit... difficult to get a proper support in English over there, I think.


Edited by Jascha
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I really, really love my VKB Gunfighter Pro with Ultimate Grip. I mean bigly on that also. But seriously VKB needs to take a look at how their competitors forums are laid out.  VKB forums are hard to navigate and to make sense of in some cases. They push out software and firmware updates with no announcement or even release notes. There is no easy access to previous firmware/software versions either. I recently updated my Gunfighter Mk III with Ultimate grip, afterwards DCS saw it as a MCG Grip rather than Ultimate with no buttons assigned. Luckily after I posted about this on their forums a VKB employee did make available to me the previous three versions of firmware I could try. Luckily one of the three versions worked and DCS saw it as the Ultimate Grip with all my settings intact.

Seriously though, VKB love your hardware but man you need better access to software and firmware along with communication on your forums. When your competitor releases new software and firmware, it all comes in one download package along with release notes stating what has changed along with improvements. And your forum software is quite rough around the edges.

When it comes to the hardware, you are absolutely awesome! However when it comes to the supporting software, you are pretty lacking. This thread is a good example of that.

Don B

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8 hours ago, dburne said:

love my VKB Gunfighter Pro with Ultimate Grip

Me too. But I must agree the software is poor, the forum is awful, vkb "support" is just dismissive. I will not ask anything on their forum again. 

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@Sokol1_br

Finally, I've figured it out (took only 3 hours)!

Here is a video demonstration. Maybe it will be useful for you too:

But... unfortunately I'm unable to set these axes in DCS as I wanted. It's just how modifiers for axes work right now. Unlike modifiers for buttons, the unmodified input is still seen:

EDIT:

After thinking it thorough, actually it's not DCS fault. DCS doesn't know that this is the same physical axis. It sees axis RX, RY, RZ so no wonder using modifier with axis RY/RZ doesn't block axis RX from responding...

What a bummer...

Still... It could be useful if someone want just to split a physical axis in two separate ones.


Edited by Jascha
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Just a small update from me. I was finally able to set it up like I originally intended in the video. I did this using Joystick Gremlin (and vJoy plugin). Amazing software with great potential. It has been mentioned already in the second post of this topic. I should have listened. 😉

The solution is to create multiple modes in Joystick Gremlin and use temporary mode switches. In this way I can switch to split axis as long as I hold the designated button (on Warthog Throttle) and after I release it - I'm back to regular (full axis) rudder input. Thanks to this I'm able to bind VKB T-Rudder (via vJoy output) like this:

1) regular rudder/NWS input (Gremlin mode 1 - axis RX)

2) dual brake axis input (I can use left or right pedal for it) - with modifier A (Gremlin mode 2 - axes RY and RZ)

3) left / right brake axis input with use of left / right pedal - with modifier B (Gremlin mode 3 - slider 1 and 2)

Normally I need just 1 and 2. For warbirds all 3 are useful.


Edited by Jascha
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On 7/21/2022 at 4:02 PM, Jascha said:

 

Left pedal ~50% down: (and right brake ~50% released).

Screenshot_3.png

 

"Dead horse"...   But curious with the differences of operation between TinyBox (early T-rudder) and BlackBox - in the last the brake force being proportional to rudder movement, I check DevCfg manual, there are four options for "virtual brakes":

BrakeV  - is the default setting for TinyBox of early T-Rudder Pedals, the brake force is 0% or 100%, going for 0% in one wheel when rudder is 8% off the center for this side.

BrakeV1

BrakeV2

BrakeV3

 

BlackBox probable use BrakeV1 or BrakeV3.

BrakeV1 - (from manual) "On rudder pedal moving differential brake of corresponding direction is engaged. It begins when rudder axis response exceeds value of % field (Fig. 3.11). 3.11. On brake button press both differential brakes work. On rudder moving idle axis will reach engaged then they will move together. On brake button release both axes will be released. Idle to zero engaged to value depending on rudder pedal response value."

Curious is that BrakeV1 in TinyBox move the virtual brake axes -, e.g. move rudder for left, engage left brake in proportional way; without need press the button in joystick, but T-link need be active.  Pressing the joy button wheels is brakes 100%, even with one already braked less e.g. 50%.

Anyway brake always working with rudder movement is dangerous. 😜  Don't figure practical use for this settings, despite looks ideal for taxi- as resemble more an "toe brakes"; is dangerous for takeoff run when the rudder is needed.

BrakeV3 is similar to Brake1, but inverted, pushing left pedal, cancel the brake force in right wheel proportional to rudder movement (from center to left). Require assignment of the  brakes swapped and may make less sharp turns on ground.

BrakeV2 is similar to BrakeV but the activation seems more instantly, less than 8% of rudder movements cancel the brake in respective wheel. 


Edited by Sokol1_br
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21 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

 

"Dead horse"...   But curious with the differences of operation between TinyBox (early T-rudder) and BlackBox - in the last the brake force being proportional to rudder movement, I check DevCfg manual, there are four options for "virtual brakes":

BrakeV  - is the default setting for TinyBox of early T-Rudder Pedals, the brake force is 0% or 100%, going for 0% in one wheel when rudder is 8% off the center for this side.

BrakeV1

BrakeV2

BrakeV3

 

BlackBox probable use BrakeV1 or BrakeV3.

BrakeV1 - (from manual) "On rudder pedal moving differential brake of corresponding direction is engaged. It begins when rudder axis response exceeds value of % field (Fig. 3.11). 3.11. On brake button press both differential brakes work. On rudder moving idle axis will reach engaged then they will move together. On brake button release both axes will be released. Idle to zero engaged to value depending on rudder pedal response value."

Curious is that BrakeV1 in TinyBox move the virtual brake axes -, e.g. move rudder for left, engage left brake in proportional way; without need press the button in joystick, but T-link need be active.  Pressing the joy button wheels is brakes 100%, even with one already braked less e.g. 50%.

Anyway brake always working with rudder movement is dangerous. 😜  Don't figure practical use for this settings, despite looks ideal for taxi- as resemble more an "toe brakes"; is dangerous for takeoff run when the rudder is needed.

BrakeV3 is similar to Brake1, but inverted, pushing left pedal, cancel the brake force in right wheel proportional to rudder movement (from center to left). Require assignment of the  brakes swapped and may make less sharp turns on ground.

BrakeV2 is similar to BrakeV but the activation seems more instantly, less than 8% of rudder movements cancel the brake in respective wheel. 

 

I have BrakeV3 set up in my VKBDevCfg. But this setting only affects virtual axes that are enabled when using T-Link software. And since now I understand that we HAVE TO use some software in the background in order to use multiple axes with T-Rudder, the best option is Joystick Gremlin. Period. I see no reason to use T-Link whatsoever.

With Gremlin you have the ability to use your full axis response regardless of whether you have BlackBox or TinyBox (it will just split your axis in two virtual axes).

I have now tested it in both DCS and IL2 and it works great. I can use pedals as a rudder by default, dual braking with either pedal (since it's not possible to depress both T-Rudder pedals at once) or to use each pedal as a corresponding side brake. You can bind it as yJoy axes in DCS with no problem since DCS allows to assign axes from the list. In IL2 it's trickier since you have to use a software that will hide actual physical axis during the mapping (otherwise you won't be able to bind vJoy axes).

If I recall correctly, you've said that you use your joystick twist axis as a virtual brakes with T-Link where brakes don't work gradually but only 0-1 (like BrakeV above), is this correct? If so, do yourself a favor and configure Joystick Gremlin. You'll see the difference. And if someone wants only to use twist axis for side brakes (and not for anything else), it's also possible to configure VKBDevCfg profile like in the video I posted above.

Maybe I'll post a step-by-step tutorial how to configure Gremlin for VKB T-Rudder soon (for future readers).

UPDATE:

I've posted the guide in separate topic.

 


Edited by Jascha
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On 7/28/2022 at 4:00 PM, Jascha said:

In IL2 it's trickier since you have to use a software that will hide actual physical axis during the mapping (otherwise you won't be able to bind vJoy axes).

An option for set the axes in IL-2:GB (Bo'X') is edit the file "current.action) in game Input folder. 

Quote

If I recall correctly, you've said that you use your joystick twist axis as a virtual brakes with T-Link where brakes don't work gradually but only 0-1 (like BrakeV above), is this correct? 

I use VKB Gladiator Mk.II twist for "wheel brakes" and this axis give me proportional movement from 0 to 100% (or like BrakeV1), not the 0 or 100% of T-Link.

Half of twist give a full axis, the "Rot X" axis, responding to twist left:

Twist-brake.jpg

 

For this T-Link is not needed, just need chance two box in DeVCFG for twist axis, one removing the center position of the axis, and other for invert the response, without inversion is need twist for right, less practical than twist for left. Too don't need create virtual axis.

What I need test is the configuration in DevCFG like you did, but with the joystick twist axis (T-Rudder in your case) pressing one virtual axis for right, one for left, this will give "toe brakes" without extra software, modifiers and without need use rudder pedals.

The same axis plus a modifier button can be used for "wheel brakes". Gladiator, have two modes for buttons, so  I can use trigger to be the modifier, setting one mode for ground use, where trigger is not needed. So press trigger, twist for left = wheel brakes.

I am avoiding touch Joystick Gremlin due vJoy, I have headaches with this driver setting R/C transmitter as computer controller for R/C model simulation. 😁

Quote

Maybe I'll post a step-by-step tutorial how to configure Gremlin for VKB T-Rudder soon (for future readers).

UPDATE:

I've posted the guide in separate topic.

Nice, I suggest post too in VKB.forum and Reddit/r/HOTAS.


Edited by Sokol1_br
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4 hours ago, Sokol1_br said:

What I need test is the configuration in DevCFG like you did, but with the joystick twist axis (T-Rudder in your case) pressing one virtual axis for right, one for left, this will give "toe brakes" without extra software, modifiers and without need use rudder pedals.

Technically, you can do it - as I have posted before:

Here are the settings that I had:

Screenshot_1.png

Axis 7 - RX - main axis (rudder)

Axis 6- RZ - virtual right

Axis 8 - RY - virtual left

(sorry for the mess 😂)

BUT this makes sense to use only if you want to bind your main axis OR two virtual axes. You cannot bind them all, because even with modifiers main axis will always be generating input. So you will be using your toe brake but also rudder/NWS at the same time. The reason for it is simple, modifier blocks input from the SAME unmodified source. And in this case all these axes act as separate sources.

So, as far as I know, to have a possibility to actually use all 3 axes at once, you need some software running in the background and a virtual device (vJoy) for it. You simply won't be able to configure it so when you use your virtual axes your main axis is blocked from generating input.

Unless modes in Gladiator work differently, but somehow I doubt that.

Other solution would be to have a possibility to select what source should be blocked when using modifier in DCS. But I don't think that this is a popular request, so it's unlikely that it will ever be added.


Edited by Jascha
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