reported Timing Issue

[WHOGX5]

On 4/1/2021 at 12:54 AM, Frederf said:

The entirety of interaction would be DED pages TIME and CRUS DTOS. System time (and date) initializes on power up to use GPS time when it comes online so it requires flipping the GPS switch and probably wait a brief time (initialization 4s?). TIME page has "GPS" label. Label is blanked when GPS not supplying system time (off, not ready yet, manually deselected). Deselection is by SEQ when on the TIME page or by manual entry of system time in CRUS DTOS page. When GPS is deselected then manual time/date entry on TIME page is allowed. I don't see any mention of how to get system time back on GPS source although it might be possible.

In the HAF -1 under the Have Quick section it says that it takes 30-45 seconds from powering the EGI until satellite acquisition. GPS TOD will be entered automatically when contact has been established with a satellite and it will say GPS SYSTEM instead of just SYSTEM in the DED TIME page. It also says that GPS TOD should be manually updated again when you have a GPS HIGH horizontal accuracy status (alt. <300 ft) or when you have confirmed that your EGI is tracking four satellites at once to make sure your system time is accurate. However, it doesn't specify how to actually update the GPS time. I'll have to see if I can find that somewhere.

 

 

 

 

[Machalot]

6 hours ago, WHOGX5 said:

It also says that GPS TOD should be manually updated again when you have a GPS HIGH horizontal accuracy status (alt. <300 ft) or when you have confirmed that your EGI is tracking four satellites at once to make sure your system time is accurate. However, it doesn't specify how to actually update the GPS time. I'll have to see if I can find that somewhere.

I assume "updated manually" in this case doesn't mean type in the time, but more likely to press a button to initiate a time sync of system time with GPS time. 

[Frederf]

Note that the PXIII has MMC and EGI while the DCS Viper has MMC and INS-GPS and PXII has FCC and INS-GPS. Which of the PXIII or PXII manuals most closely resembles the DCS variant in operation is a bit of a mystery to me. I don't know if DCS and PXIII both having MMC (but differing on EGI) or DCS and PXII both having INS-GPS (but differing on MMC) is more significant here.

 

Usually "TOD" is reserved for HQ radio discussion. Make sure that the instruction to re-sync with EGI TOD is relevant to system time and not HQ. Everything I read in HAF -1s is about getting another HQ TOD manually, not system time. My understanding is that system time will wait indefinitely until GPS time is on bus and so this would be automatic.  I can't find if or how the pilot manually or system automatically would source GPS as system time if it was decoupled. I'm guessing it's using SEQ on the DED TIME page (same as turning it off) but that's a guess.

 

Getting a positional fix with GPS is not the same as getting GPS time. Theoretically one can get GPS time (of some accuracy) from a single satellite. The system might wait for a full spatial track before releasing GPS time on the bus or it might be earlier. If I had to guess I would say it waits for GPS nav fix before releasing time on bus.

 

 

 

[Dee-Jay]

17 hours ago, Machalot said:

I assume "updated manually" in this case doesn't mean type in the time, but more likely to press a button to initiate a time sync of system time with GPS time. 

 

No. The TOD is only to sync all the "player's" HQII cryptos. It can be done by an AWACS, by GPS, or manually (tone on UHF to sync all radios of all players).

The F-16 has an internal clock (drifting slowly as any clock) that can be set manually on the "hack" time. The system clock is permanently synchronized on GPS Time clock when GPS are available.

 

[Frederf]

Not permanent. Pilot can deselect GPS system time source in a couple ways when GPS time is valid.

[LieutenantFalcon]

Bumping this topic again as the bug is still present, but has probably been missed due to a poor description.

Version: 2.7.9.18080, latest Open Beta

Issue: F-16 MMC time creates an offset with zulu time equal to the time after mission start when you flip on the MMC. In other words: the time on the DED always begins at the mission start time (in this case 0800z, 12:00 local at Tblisi) regardless of how much time has progressed in the mission. It appears to not be tied in to GPS time.

Replicate: Simply start up the F-16 and take note at which in-game time you turn on the MMC relative to when the mission starts, returning to the CNI page will show an exact offset between the 2.

F16_DED_Zulu_Time_Bug.trk

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged, 

I do have this already reported for the team to investigate further. 

thanks

[Black6]

There is a small issue with viper system clock.
If the viper is not runed-up at the time of mission start (cold and dark or even later start) – the system clock is set to the time of missions start and will start ticking after external power is online or the main generator is working. I suppose, it should be independent.

[Tholozor]

At the moment it's correct as-is, but under investigation:

 

[BIGNEWY]

posts merged

[QuiGon]

On 5/5/2020 at 4:03 PM, TEOMOOSE said:

I understand, but. Such weapons like JDAM etc. require gps to employ.

They don't. JDAMs are INS/GPS weapons and can be employed with INS guidance only. They lack a bit of precision then (depending on the precision of the aircraft INS), but it works. In case of a peer-to-peer war you have to take into account that the enemy might shoot down GPS satelites and GPS might not be available. Having systems that require GPS to work would be a bad idea. That's why all military aircraft still have INS systems for navigation, aided by GPS. GPS helps, but is not necessary.

Edited April 4, 2022 by QuiGon

[TheBigTatanka]

This is getting a little off topic from the clock sync issue (analogue or digital system to GPS time), but IRL the JDAM releases and guides based on INS for the first part of its time of flight. After a certain number of seconds, the weapon's GPS antenna pick up the satellite signal and it guides with the more accurate GPS data. In a degraded/denied GPS environment, you would plan your attack for a shorter time of fall so the bomb only used inertial guidance from the jet's systems (which can be accurately fixed via an INS update using the radar or TGP on a known structure via an offset aim point along the route).

Curious to see what happens with the clock sync issue, as I've been trying to set up servers to match real world time of day, and noticed the desync between that and jet time. I wonder if turning GPS time off and on would sync it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[TheBigTatanka]

Just spent some time looking at these clock issues. On a cold and dark jet, the analogue clock keeps time with the server clock (as one would expect). However, the GPS time does not, nor does the DED system time. As Frederf mentioned, the system time we would expect to set (if it isn't linked up to the GPS clock somehow), but the fact that the GPS time isn't accurate seems rather strange. Turning the GPS time sync on and off doesn't change the GPS time either. It's going to be pretty tough to get everyone in a 4 ship synced to the right time hack as the clocks are currently modeled (especially if everyone is in VR).

[Frederf]

The DCS model doesn't seem to source time from GPS when available at all and I would treat it as such. You can't see GPS time directly afaik. You would see GPS time indirectly when system time synced with it.

Time should be manual without GPS and auto with. It would make the most sense for system time to start a random time in the past say 2-23 hours ago. The idea that the airplane was shutdown 1 sec before you strapped in is weird.

When MMC comes online it would initialize to GPS source and quickly sync if possible. I don't know if the avionics GPS switch off inhibits GPS time use but probably. Time can be changed to manual either normal or hack and back onto auto at any time. GPS weapons shouldn't care either way.

[TheBigTatanka]

I asked a friend of mine who flew the F-16 on his last assignment (~4 years ago), and he said you had to set the system clock only when the GPS Battery was dead. He said you had to manually set the L16 clock everytime to initialize link... So I'm trying to figure out what that means.

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[TheBigTatanka]

Another F-16 friend said he's never had to input the system time into the jet, it's always worked from the GPS time (although the option is there if needed).

Can one of the community managers ask the team why the DCS jet isn't drawing its system time from the GPS clock?

 

Cheers

[NineLine]

Its quite possible this isn't working as expected because the GPS page in the DED is not developed yet. I am inclined to think that it would update time based of that once its more fleshed out.

[TheBigTatanka]

That makes sense actually.   As a work around for now, I've coded the "enter" key on my keyboard to the "enter" key on the ICP.  We punch in the upcomming minute and do a time-hack over the radio from the F-10 Map clock.  At the hack, I hit my enter key. It works for being in VR.

[RogueSqdn]

On 4/13/2022 at 1:01 AM, TheBigTatanka said:

That makes sense actually.   As a work around for now, I've coded the "enter" key on my keyboard to the "enter" key on the ICP.  We punch in the upcomming minute and do a time-hack over the radio from the F-10 Map clock.  At the hack, I hit my enter key. It works for being in VR.

I do something similar in single player in VR.  I have a small keypad that has the info bar keystroke programmed into it.  I'll bring up the time page and set my time based on the info bar, clicking the ICP with PointCTRL.

[dureiken]

Hi

 

with the next arrival of CRUS PAGE !! (thanks)

I would like to bump this post because there's still the clock problem in multiplayer. On each flight with F16, time on DED is not the same for different planes. It can be minutes !

 

Thanks for looking and correcting that

 

made a little test, in MP server :

As you can see , 18 seconds between screenshots, and 1min47 between clocks ?

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by dureiken

[Sile]

If "our" block didn't have the ability to sync to the GPS time - can we please get a wrist watch on the pilot model for the time hack?

[Moonshine]

2 minutes ago, Sile said:

If "our" block didn't have the ability to sync to the GPS time - can we please get a wrist watch on the pilot model for the time hack?

i see what you did there sir

also yes it is true, the times arent synced when cold starting, really hoping for this to get changed / added maybe with the work on the TIME page and the various other DED pages we still are missing. (at least for the missions set in years after the GPS implementation)

Edited May 4, 2022 by Moonshine

[Frederf]

System time can be changed on the CRUS page. Doing so deselects GPS as time source.

[Moonshine]

Even then, cold start with gps as time source will not synchronize the times as of now, without de-selecting gps time beforehand and thats the subject matter

[Wing]

Aircraft should auto-sync with GPS time upon startup. Even from a cold and dark state. This is how GPS system time works in general...