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Hornet Roadmap Discussion


Wags

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Dear Community and Hornet Pilots,

 

 

We are open and look forward to your comments and requests. Let’s discuss it and finalize the plan!

 

 

So there's 8 pages and counting....of comments and requests. Can we have some 'discussion' from your side too, Wags and team?

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Well, at least this gives me a better chance to organize my plans with squadron members on what's going to be available more or less in which order.

 

I also think it's only fair that the 18 is getting finished first before pushing work into new modules that came after.

 

I hope though that labeling something 'out of early access' is not an attempt to consider it finished, and taking advantage of such 'formal' state, when finished is actually not.

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"Improvements"…...LOL :megalol:

 

ED, what a shame to say that the plane will out of Early Access in 2020, you have seen all that remains to be done ?

 

Given what is planned in 2020 (17 items) then in 2021 (27 items), the module will be completely finished in 2022!

 

When i remember this post, it is only one month ago : https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4235036&postcount=17

 

I think you lied to the players !!

 

I will no longer buy any modules from ED, never.


Edited by hanab
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I strongly disagree on claiming something is out of early access when you still have a list of ~20 features to be added to it, particularly if those features are core systems like ATFLIR, radar modes or a full simulation of the INS. It just doesn't look good for ED and doesn't achieve anything other than piss off the community. "Improvement" steps would only make sense if they were niche features, like additional versions of the AIM-7, training bombs or what have you, but I suspect all of those would not take very long to develop.

 

 

Having said that, the roadmap in general seems reasonable to me. It's a choice between doing things well, and doing them quickly, and I'm happy with going with the first. I just want to re-iterate that by definition, that choice should mean that the product will be in EA for a while longer though.


Edited by TLTeo
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I strongly disagree on claiming something is out of early access when you still have a list of ~20 features to be added to it. It just doesn't look good for ED and doesn't achieve anything other than piss off the community.

 

 

Having said that, the roadmap in general seems reasonable to me. It's a choice between doing things well, and doing them quickly, and I'm happy with going with the first. I just want to re-iterate that by definition, that choice should mean that the product will be in EA for a while longer though.

 

I agree with this. I think everyone appreciates the transparency in the roadmap, as far as criticism about features themselves, at most there's just a couple of features that were left out for unknown reasons, but I think the agreement is almost there. In particular I think completion of missing HOTAS features would be highly appreciated.

 

Where ED and everyone else seems to disagree heavily is leaving ~27 features for "after early access release", which I think is fair. The product should be in EA until the planned feature list is complete, even if that happens in 2021 or later. I think the disagreement is less about the timeframe and more about marking a product with so many features missing as "out of early access".


Edited by Santi871
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  • ED Team

Dear all, I wanted to post Mr Grey's response on Hoggit here as well, as it seems to address some questions and concerns posted here as well.

 

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

Many thanks for your message. Your assessment of the situation is not wrong, despite being somewhat absolute. May I take this opportunity of respectfully qualifying certain things please.

 

The notion of 'out of early access' does not imply feature complete, in fact I believe that none of our products will ever truly be feature complete as simulation perfection requires permanent enhancements and polish as you are probably aware. Out of Early Access should be seen as representing a state which no longer justifies the moniker which is designed to warn the customer that the product is in a state of incompleteness that deserves such a heads up. The objective of qualifying a product as Early Access is to create awareness. Once a product is so far advanced in its development cycle that it would be incorrect to label it as such, then it should be removed.

 

In the same vein, we should avoid defining a product as feature complete when in fact it continues to receive work well beyond that date. Anecdotally, even one of our oldest products, the A10C, receives updates well beyond a decade after the USAF defined it as feature complete... Maybe I am misinformed but I understand that there are but few companies who do continue to upgrade products in such a fashion in this industry, but I am willing to be taught otherwise.

 

With regards to moving the goalposts I couldn't agree with you more. Life is a moving feast and I imagine you have felt so recently too. Most have been dealt somewhat of a blow these days and we are no exception. That is why we announced a free for all month to recognise and honour those who need a little hand in addition to donating 10% of our net sales during the period to an exceptionally needy Children's Charity. We believe that such events resonate with our community as a whole, but clearly there are exceptions as your mention of bad faith seems to illustrate.

 

Please recognise that some time ago our whole team of 137 staff had to up sticks and start working from home. Not so easy with lockdown and two small kids milling around all day seeking attention. Productivity has not suffered catastrophically but the times are challenging to say the least and I must commend the whole team and in particular Kate as their fearless leader for managing this with great aplomb and determination. I can assure you, from the many other businesses in which I am involved, this is not the universal case and by a long margin indeed. Maybe you have not experienced this but sadly we have and I apologise again.

 

With regards to the long timelines for such products, I agree they are too long and I as founder and investor would love to see things deliver in short order and be able to reap the fruits therefrom. Indeed, I am certain Google would like to have done the same with its chrome product (which is up to version 81 and still sports thousands of bugs) or Windows arrive with version 12 from the get go and so on. This is sadly a pipe dream, not only technically but also financially. We need you and all our community from early on, especially for these highly complex products which cost millions to develop. We need the input, the motivation and focus as well as a sense of urgency that an eager and somewhat hungry Early Access community brings to the team, in addition to which we need the financial support to boot or the product would deliver in five years and would have a 250 USD price tag. Clearly this would be the end of our dreams.

 

Despite the fact that we have doubled our user base in the last 12 months and continue to grow, please remember this is an exceptionally nichy and elitist market. We have a substantial pipeline and ambitions to remain at the top of this genre but without your understanding and support we may not succeed.

 

Your decision not to purchase Early Access products is fully accepted and understandable both philosophically and practically speaking but I do have a question: for someone who has owned the F18 for I imagine quite some time as you intimate, would it be wrong for me to imagine that you derived no pleasure nor value therefrom? If the answers is no, then I must once again apologise, but his time profusely for having personally wasted your time and your hard earned funds. But if the answers is yes, then I am somewhat confused, but that is not uncommon either...

 

Thank you for your passion and support.

 

Respectfully yours,

 

Nick

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It is becoming harder and harder to defend your way of development to be honest.

 

Viper was released and many Hornet fans were disappointed with the Viper taking the spotlight. The state of the Viper was also questionable at release to say the least.

 

We were told that both addons would be developed together and that both would take advantaged of using similar functions and systems so that would speed up things.

 

Now F16 is abandoned (last few months it already showed 0 real progress) and Hornet is pushed towards (actually over) end 2020 (Viper was also announced to be pushed out of EA end 2020 remember?).

 

At this time, the roadmap has little meaning for me as the past promises were never met. Hope you will prove me wrong this time, that would be a welcome change for once.

 

Good luck with the development and hope to see you back in good health somewhere in 2021!

Beste regards,

Stefan, HereThen

 

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My Opinion

 

I'm fine with waiting and I appreciate ED's commitment to finishing the EA modules. I've been playing flight sims since Chuck Yeager's Air Combat and have watched many developers come and go. ED and 1C have shocked me with their staying power. For both companies, it's obvious this is a labor of love.

 

 

Thanks for making a sim that brings me so many hours of entertainment and one that no other developer would even dare to attempt.

 

 

Stay healthy ED.

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Dear all, I wanted to post Mr Grey's response on Hoggit here as well, as it seems to address some questions and concerns posted here as well.

 

 

This is doing nothing but moving the goal post. Now all of a sudden ED doesn't know what "feature complete" is :mad: It's when you deliver on all of the features you gleefully took customers money for.

 

Whats next? Are all of the advertised features of these modules going to mysteriously get lost. I don't see how anyone could continue to defend this. Nice humble brag about donating to a charity, this doesn't excuse not being able to deliver to your customers in a timely fashion

 

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"Straighten up and fly right"

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It seems that as I imagined, the so-called "exit from the early product stage" does not mean that "all the functions of the product have been developed". But I'm very touched that you are willing to exchange this information. thank you!

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:thumbup:So much negativity. DCS is a work-in-progress as a system. I remember things like “JetFighter 2000”. Complete crap. That software company took the money and ran. The fact that DSC evolves and the company still supports modules is awesome. Much rather have a product crafted by enthusiasts than another disappointing game. Good things come to those who wait. Be patient.

+1

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I don't want to be that guy but I kinda called it two months ago...

 

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=264685

 

 

 

Felt it a comin'

That statement was made in a time as the situation about Covid19 was totally different. I understand that time is running fast and the things will change rapidly. The community managers get their information from the devs and since the last two months the situation changed rapidly. So let's go ahead guys
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I agree with this. I think everyone appreciates the transparency in the roadmap, as far as criticism about features themselves, at most there's just a couple of features that were left out for unknown reasons, but I think the agreement is almost there. In particular I think completion of missing HOTAS features would be highly appreciated.

 

Where ED and everyone else seems to disagree heavily is leaving ~27 features for "after early access release", which I think is fair. The product should be in EA until the planned feature list is complete, even if that happens in 2021 or later. I think the disagreement is less about the timeframe and more about marking a product with so many features missing as "out of early access".

 

 

I think the problem is they shouldn't label it in the brackets of Early Access vs Release. Because the fact is we have a laundry list of things that need to be implemented. Obviously it's gonna stretch beyond 2020 "Big Surprise" But it doesn't really matter what they call IMO, the fact is: its not done yet and it won't be this year. The labels are confusing everyone, I think they would do well to just say its in beta and they have no idea how long it will be that way period.

 

 

 

No more dates, no more promises, yadda yadda. It gets done when it gets done. Then you won't have people with stopwatches here harassing wonderfully enlightening threads like this which seem too serve no purpose but too punish the devs for their transparency. Unfortunately I think we need to return to the ED of 2013 where we have no idea whats going on, at all No newsletters, no mini updates, no quarterly roadmap updates, No words from Nick, Kate, Wags, nothing just silence until we get what we want.

 

 

 

People just can't handle it.


Edited by Wizard_03

DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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For what it's worth here are my two cents:

 

My priorities would be:

* ATFLIR

* Flight model improvements

 

As an owner of both the Viper and Bug, I'm glad the Bug will get priority this year.

 

As for the debate about what "early access" means, it's just semantics. Just keep up the good work.

 

I'm really looking forward to the next update and hopefully some Hornet tutorials this weekend.

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Let’s not forget CAS. Right now, I try to play missions (which came with F-18) with a JTAC and cannot input the grid coordinates that are given! And the JTAC only provides them in grid.. there is no grid entry (or CAS page). Definitely a critical feature to allow the aircraft to do anything resembling CAS.. should be in early access for a sure.

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