LooseSeal Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 What does "reverse engineering" mean in this context? Did Heatblur/True Grit steal one from the Luftwaffe and break it apart for analysis? 8 - i7-7700k - 32GB DDR4 2400Mhz - GTX 1080 8GB - Installed on SSD - TM Warthog DCS Modules - A-10C; M-2000C; AV8B; F/A-18C; Ka-50; FC-3; UH-1H; F-5E; Mi-8; F-14; Persian Gulf; NTTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAXsenna Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 What does "reverse engineering" mean in this context? Did Heatblur/True Grit steal one from the Luftwaffe and break it apart for analysis? My thoughts exactly! Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voodoo_One Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 (edited) Probably they mean the experience some of the Truegrit guys have -> After all a lot of them were (or still are?) pilots, close to the eurofighter and the founder was even higher up So they in some way "reverse engineer" the known behavior from them without documents? Edited May 7, 2022 by Voodoo_One 3 1000 flights, 1000 crashes - perfect record Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick50 Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 (edited) No, of course not, they clearly found a lone Typhoon in the corner of an airfield and started taking it apart piece by piece, code by code, all while disguising themselves with white labcoats and fake moustaches! Eventually, the wing commander will notice the missing aircraft and discover the plane in pieces and order it assembled ASAP "or else someone's getting posted to Thule AFB!!" (not that it's my place to question why a Luftwaffe airman would be posted to Thule in the first place!) Edit: Just like Fragger certainly has a Bo-105 hidden away in a barn on a hill in the Black Forrest, so he can meticulously recreate that agile fling-wing anti-tank nightmare of Soviet tank crews! Hmm... I'm sensing a pattern... Edited May 9, 2022 by Rick50 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Burns Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 On 5/7/2022 at 1:44 AM, LooseSeal said: What does "reverse engineering" mean in this context? Did Heatblur/True Grit steal one from the Luftwaffe and break it apart for analysis? I recon they mean they know what the screens look like and how they work theoretically or realistically, but as there is no Fuel Computer (for example) as such, then you need to find out how to get the correct data to represent the aircraft fuel modeling using DCS code. Although this sounds like reverse engineering, I would have thought it would be built the other way around or it seems a bit hit an miss? 16 hours ago, Rick50 said: No, of course not, they clearly found a lone Typhoon in the corner of an airfield and started taking it apart piece by piece, code by code, all while disguising themselves with white labcoats and fake moustaches! Eventually, the wing commander will notice the missing aircraft and discover the plane in pieces and order it assembled ASAP "or else someone's getting posted to Thule AFB!!" (not that it's my place to question why a Luftwaffe airman would be posted to Thule in the first place!) ISTR that the very first production aircraft sent to the Luftwaffe was given to the ground crew training team who took it apart and it never flew again, perhaps they sneaked it out piece by piece? Of course, European rivalry stories are not always to be believed so its probably just made up by BAe guys to have a laugh at the Germans without any basis! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smire666 Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 Reverse engineering e.g. 3D-mesh scanning and translating into the CAD model, like at Tomcat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectre11 Posted May 10, 2022 Share Posted May 10, 2022 On 5/8/2022 at 5:54 AM, Mr_Burns said: ISTR that the very first production aircraft sent to the Luftwaffe was given to the ground crew training team who took it apart and it never flew again, perhaps they sneaked it out piece by piece? Of course, European rivalry stories are not always to be believed so its probably just made up by BAe guys to have a laugh at the Germans without any basis! GT1 was returned to the Luftwaffe in December 2015, after 12 years and is flying for TLG73 (the GAF OCU). It was the last German T1 to be cycled through the R2 program. Main issue was that the aircraft was delivered to the GAF ground training establishment at Kaufbeuren, before it was formally accepted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiGCap1 Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 On 5/10/2022 at 9:19 AM, Spectre11 said: GT1 was returned to the Luftwaffe in December 2015, after 12 years and is flying for TLG73 (the GAF OCU). It was the last German T1 to be cycled through the R2 program. Main issue was that the aircraft was delivered to the GAF ground training establishment at Kaufbeuren, before it was formally accepted. Yep. Pic from September 2019: 2 http://www.instagram.com/spetersen13/?fbclid=IwAR07OCbRZX6qISe0fS8iUQfzts_iazbm7UEsxiKNnqviADGTaRWJJN7iAws http://www.facebook.com/spetersen13/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSplayer Posted May 16, 2022 Share Posted May 16, 2022 (edited) “Research is the cornerstone of any great DCS Module - but even more so for the Eurofighter, where heavy lifting by our engineering team in CFD is key to understanding the performance of both the aircraft and ordnance. No buffing, no nerfing, no other ultimate goal except realism, immersion and making you confident in our simulation.” https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/posts/2019252551595686 Edited May 16, 2022 by DSplayer 5 2 -Tinkerer, Certified F-14 and AIM-54 Nut | Discord: @dsplayer Setup: i7-8700k, GTX 1080 Ti, 32GB 3066Mhz, Lots of Storage, Saitek/Logitech X56 HOTAS, TrackIR + TrackClipPro Modules: F-14, F/A-18, JF-17, F-16C, Mirage 2000C, FC3, F-5E, Mi-24P, AJS-37, AV-8B, A-10C II, AH-64D, MiG-21bis, F-86F, MiG-19P, P-51D, Mirage F1, L-39, C-101, SA342M, Ka-50 III, Supercarrier, F-15E Maps: Caucasus, Marianas, South Atlantic, Persian Gulf, Syria, Nevada Mods I've Made: F-14 Factory Clean Cockpit Mod | Modern F-14 Weapons Mod | Iranian F-14 Weapons Pack | F-14B Nozzle Percentage Mod + Label Fix | AIM-23 Hawk Mod for F-14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 Only thing I'm slightly worried about is the lack of official EM charts based on RL flight testing to consult. Without this the realism of the FM is going to rely entirely how close CFD testing and physics calcs can get the module to reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C3PO Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 4 hours ago, Hummingbird said: Only thing I'm slightly worried about is the lack of official EM charts based on RL flight testing to consult. Without this the realism of the FM is going to rely entirely how close CFD testing and physics calcs can get the module to reality. I'm sure it'll come pretty close ;) Now: Water-cooled Ryzen 5800X + 32GB DDR 4 3200 RAM + EVGA 3090 FTW3 Ultra 24 GB + Reverb G2 + Add-on PCI-e 3.1 card + 2x1TB Corsair M.2 4900/4200 + TM HOTAS Warthog + TM TPR Pendular Rudder 'Engaged Defensive' YouTube Channel Modules: F/A-18C / AV-8B / F-16 / F-15E / F-4E (when it lands) / Persian Gulf / Syria / Nevada / Sinai / South Atlantic Backup: Water-cooled i7 6700K @ 4.5GHz + 32GB DDR4 3200MHz + GTX 1080 8GB + 1TB M.2 1k drive & 250GB SSD drive 500MBps 4K 40" monitor + TrackIR 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick50 Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 23 hours ago, Hummingbird said: Only thing I'm slightly worried about is the lack of official EM charts based on RL flight testing to consult. Without this the realism of the FM is going to rely entirely how close CFD testing and physics calcs can get the module to reality. Riiiiiight... because that'll be declassified for sure!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Rick50 said: Riiiiiight... because that'll be declassified for sure!! No, that's the thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick50 Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 (edited) You found it declassified by all relevant defense ministries? And not subject to corporate IP and NDA's? Cool, how about posting it, to share with us, True Grit and Heat Blur ? Edited May 20, 2022 by Rick50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano87 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 On 5/20/2022 at 7:59 PM, Rick50 said: You found it declassified by all relevant defense ministries? And not subject to corporate IP and NDA's? Cool, how about posting it, to share with us, True Grit and Heat Blur ? Sarcasm doesn’t translate well over text, specially to people where English isn’t their first language. @Hummingbird was pointing out that the docs wouldn’t be available. Proud owner of: PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring. My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 On 5/20/2022 at 8:59 PM, Rick50 said: You found it declassified by all relevant defense ministries? And not subject to corporate IP and NDA's? Cool, how about posting it, to share with us, True Grit and Heat Blur ? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 (edited) On 5/19/2022 at 10:28 PM, C3PO said: I'm sure it'll come pretty close I hope you're right. They got PhD's working on it in conjunction with EF instructor pilots, so I'm sure it will be believable. It's just hard to beat a module that matches the charts, as it gives a special feeling of authenticity That said, who knows, maybe TG have the charts and will use them for the module, just not share them publically as pr. agreement with Eurofighter GmbH. Edited May 22, 2022 by Hummingbird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rav Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 On 5/6/2022 at 5:44 PM, LooseSeal said: What does "reverse engineering" mean in this context? Did Heatblur/True Grit steal one from the Luftwaffe and break it apart for analysis? Gero said in one of the podcasts that a lot can be gleaned from videos showing the EF peforming maneuvers at airshows etc. They have aerodynamics specialists dissecting these videos. And this type of reverse engineering is acceptable by Netma as it is based on public sources, TG/HB just has to document where they got each piece of the puzzle from. 4 Hornet | Viper | Warthog | Apache | Huey | FC3 | Mustang 5800X | RTX3080 | X-56 | Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift. Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 I'm just hoping that we get some performance charts based on the in game flight model supplied with the manual. Otherwise I'll be settling in for months of testing and recording data in the hope the FM doesnt get changed. 2 476th Discord | 476th Website | Swift Youtube Ryzen 5800x, RTX 4070ti, 64GB, Quest 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 On 5/24/2022 at 9:38 PM, Swift. said: I'm just hoping that we get some performance charts based on the in game flight model supplied with the manual. Otherwise I'll be settling in for months of testing and recording data in the hope the FM doesnt get changed. Were any other modules in DCS come with performance charts? I don't think so, but I might have missed that. Also not sure what use a performance chart of the in-game flight model would really tell you, since it's based on the in-game flight model and as such will always be subject to change (unless the developers stop tweaking the flight model, the game engine, the atmosphere, etc. etc. etc.) 1 Specs: Win10, i5-13600KF, 32GB DDR4 RAM 3200XMP, 1 TB M2 NVMe SSD, KFA2 RTX3090, VR G2 Headset, Warthog Throttle+Saitek Pedals+MSFFB2 Joystick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift. Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Lurker said: Were any other modules in DCS come with performance charts? I don't think so, but I might have missed that. Also not sure what use a performance chart of the in-game flight model would really tell you, since it's based on the in-game flight model and as such will always be subject to change (unless the developers stop tweaking the flight model, the game engine, the atmosphere, etc. etc. etc.) Well obviously ideally you'd use the RL charts. As you do for hornet. But I don't think those are available for typhoon. So it's obvious that someone will eventually have to produce them, I just imagined it would be easier for the Devs, with their existing FM data to generate the charts. Than have a user try and approximate them using experimental evidence. Edited May 27, 2022 by Swift. 476th Discord | 476th Website | Swift Youtube Ryzen 5800x, RTX 4070ti, 64GB, Quest 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostraider Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 Does any SImpilot have an idea if the FM from Eufi is the right one or not ? I think not They use all official information, maybe also Gero's experience and those of his pilots in his team, as long as it does not contain any secret information or Performance Data and what they are allowed to publish they will do.................. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]www.49th.de Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift. Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 3 hours ago, Ghostraider said: Does any SImpilot have an idea if the FM from Eufi is the right one or not ? I think not They use all official information, maybe also Gero's experience and those of his pilots in his team, as long as it does not contain any secret information or Performance Data and what they are allowed to publish they will do.................. Yep for sure, hence the in game derived performance charts. You might be surprised to know that those charts have a use other than complaining about flight models. Some people actually plan their flights. For example, I can't remember the last time I flew without referencing the charts for hornet or apache (the two airframes I fly). 1 476th Discord | 476th Website | Swift Youtube Ryzen 5800x, RTX 4070ti, 64GB, Quest 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Burns Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 5 hours ago, Swift. said: Yep for sure, hence the in game derived performance charts. You might be surprised to know that those charts have a use other than complaining about flight models. Some people actually plan their flights. For example, I can't remember the last time I flew without referencing the charts for hornet or apache (the two airframes I fly). Next level study simmer, respect! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectre11 Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 Flight Models are typically lift, drag, side forces driven and you can tune that to match performance charts. They will surely be able to produce an FM that's close enough. It could even be accurate without you haps knowing. Despite all the "charts available", there is a constant tweaking and changing of FMs for various aircraft and then you have all those discussions about this FM is better than that etc. Quite often it seems to come from people with no actual experience. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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