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Progress pictures on the Eurofighter Typhoon


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What does "reverse engineering" mean in this context?

Did Heatblur/True Grit steal one from the Luftwaffe and break it apart for analysis? 😂

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Probably they mean the experience some of the Truegrit guys have -> After all a lot of them were (or still are?) pilots, close to the eurofighter and the founder was even higher up

So they in some way "reverse engineer" the known behavior from them without documents?


Edited by Voodoo_One
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No, of course not, they clearly found a lone Typhoon in the corner of an airfield and started taking  it apart piece by piece, code by code, all while disguising themselves with white labcoats and fake moustaches! 

 

Eventually, the wing commander will notice the missing aircraft and discover the plane in pieces and order it assembled ASAP "or else someone's getting posted to Thule AFB!!"

(not that it's my place to question why a Luftwaffe airman would be posted to Thule in the first place!)

 

Edit:  

Just like Fragger certainly has a Bo-105 hidden away in a barn on a hill in the Black Forrest, so he can meticulously recreate that agile fling-wing anti-tank nightmare of Soviet tank crews! 

Hmm... I'm sensing a pattern... :surprise:


Edited by Rick50
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On 5/7/2022 at 1:44 AM, LooseSeal said:

What does "reverse engineering" mean in this context?

Did Heatblur/True Grit steal one from the Luftwaffe and break it apart for analysis? 😂

I recon they mean they know what the screens look like and how they work theoretically or realistically, but as there is no Fuel Computer (for example) as such, then you need to find out how to get the correct data to represent the aircraft fuel modeling using DCS code.

Although this sounds like reverse engineering, I would have thought it would be built the other way around or it seems a bit hit an miss?

16 hours ago, Rick50 said:

 

No, of course not, they clearly found a lone Typhoon in the corner of an airfield and started taking  it apart piece by piece, code by code, all while disguising themselves with white labcoats and fake moustaches! 

 

Eventually, the wing commander will notice the missing aircraft and discover the plane in pieces and order it assembled ASAP "or else someone's getting posted to Thule AFB!!"

(not that it's my place to question why a Luftwaffe airman would be posted to Thule in the first place!)

 

ISTR that the very first production aircraft sent to the Luftwaffe was given to the ground crew training team who took it apart and it never flew again, perhaps they sneaked it out piece by piece?

Of course, European rivalry stories are not always to be believed so its probably just made up by BAe guys to have a laugh at the Germans without any basis!

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On 5/8/2022 at 5:54 AM, Mr_Burns said:

 

ISTR that the very first production aircraft sent to the Luftwaffe was given to the ground crew training team who took it apart and it never flew again, perhaps they sneaked it out piece by piece?

Of course, European rivalry stories are not always to be believed so its probably just made up by BAe guys to have a laugh at the Germans without any basis!

GT1 was returned to the Luftwaffe in December 2015, after 12 years and is flying for TLG73 (the GAF OCU). It was the last German T1 to be cycled through the R2 program. Main issue was that the aircraft was delivered to the GAF ground training establishment at Kaufbeuren, before it was formally accepted. 

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On 5/10/2022 at 9:19 AM, Spectre11 said:

GT1 was returned to the Luftwaffe in December 2015, after 12 years and is flying for TLG73 (the GAF OCU). It was the last German T1 to be cycled through the R2 program. Main issue was that the aircraft was delivered to the GAF ground training establishment at Kaufbeuren, before it was formally accepted. 

 

Yep. Pic from September 2019:

 

SP_AIR_EF_TLG73_2019_002_Insta.jpg

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image.png


Edited by DSplayer
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Only thing I'm slightly worried about is the lack of official EM charts based on RL flight testing to consult. Without this the realism of the FM is going to rely entirely how close CFD testing and physics calcs can get the module to reality. 

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4 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

Only thing I'm slightly worried about is the lack of official EM charts based on RL flight testing to consult. Without this the realism of the FM is going to rely entirely how close CFD testing and physics calcs can get the module to reality. 

I'm sure it'll come pretty close ;)

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23 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

Only thing I'm slightly worried about is the lack of official EM charts based on RL flight testing to consult. Without this the realism of the FM is going to rely entirely how close CFD testing and physics calcs can get the module to reality. 

Riiiiiight... because that'll be declassified for sure!!

 

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You found it declassified by all relevant defense ministries? And not subject to corporate IP and NDA's? Cool, how about posting it, to share with us, True Grit and Heat Blur ?

 


Edited by Rick50
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On 5/20/2022 at 7:59 PM, Rick50 said:

You found it declassified by all relevant defense ministries? And not subject to corporate IP and NDA's? Cool, how about posting it, to share with us, True Grit and Heat Blur ?

 

 

Sarcasm doesn’t translate well over text, specially to people where English isn’t their first language. @Hummingbird was pointing out that the docs wouldn’t be available. 

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On 5/19/2022 at 10:28 PM, C3PO said:

I'm sure it'll come pretty close 😉

 

I hope you're right. They got PhD's working on it in conjunction with EF instructor pilots, so I'm sure it will be believable. It's just hard to beat a module that matches the charts, as it gives a special feeling of authenticity 🙂 

That said, who knows, maybe TG have the charts and will use them for the module, just not share them publically as pr. agreement with Eurofighter GmbH. 


Edited by Hummingbird
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On 5/6/2022 at 5:44 PM, LooseSeal said:

What does "reverse engineering" mean in this context?

Did Heatblur/True Grit steal one from the Luftwaffe and break it apart for analysis? 😂

Gero said in one of the podcasts that a lot can be gleaned from videos showing the EF peforming maneuvers at airshows etc. They have aerodynamics specialists dissecting these videos. And this type of reverse engineering is acceptable by Netma as it is based on public sources, TG/HB just has to document where they got each piece of the puzzle from.

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On 5/24/2022 at 9:38 PM, Swift. said:

I'm just hoping that we get some performance charts based on the in game flight model supplied with the manual. Otherwise I'll be settling in for months of testing and recording data in the hope the FM doesnt get changed.

Were any other modules in DCS come with performance charts? I don't think so, but I might have missed that. Also not sure what use a performance chart of the in-game flight model would really tell you, since it's based on the in-game flight model and as such will always be subject to change (unless the developers stop tweaking the flight model, the game engine, the atmosphere, etc. etc. etc.) 

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3 hours ago, Lurker said:

Were any other modules in DCS come with performance charts? I don't think so, but I might have missed that. Also not sure what use a performance chart of the in-game flight model would really tell you, since it's based on the in-game flight model and as such will always be subject to change (unless the developers stop tweaking the flight model, the game engine, the atmosphere, etc. etc. etc.) 

Well obviously ideally you'd use the RL charts. As you do for hornet. But I don't think those are available for typhoon.

So it's obvious that someone will eventually have to produce them, I just imagined it would be easier for the Devs, with their existing FM data to generate the charts. Than have a user try and approximate them using experimental evidence.


Edited by Swift.

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Does any SImpilot have an idea if the FM from Eufi is the right one or not ? I think not

They use all official information, maybe also Gero's experience and those of his pilots in his team, as long as it does not contain any secret information or Performance Data

and what they are allowed to publish they will do..................

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3 hours ago, Ghostraider said:

Does any SImpilot have an idea if the FM from Eufi is the right one or not ? I think not

They use all official information, maybe also Gero's experience and those of his pilots in his team, as long as it does not contain any secret information or Performance Data

and what they are allowed to publish they will do..................

Yep for sure, hence the in game derived performance charts. You might be surprised to know that those charts have a use other than complaining about flight models. Some people actually plan their flights.

For example, I can't remember the last time I flew without referencing the charts for hornet or apache (the two airframes I fly). 

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5 hours ago, Swift. said:

Yep for sure, hence the in game derived performance charts. You might be surprised to know that those charts have a use other than complaining about flight models. Some people actually plan their flights.

For example, I can't remember the last time I flew without referencing the charts for hornet or apache (the two airframes I fly). 

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Flight Models are typically lift, drag, side forces driven and you can tune that to match performance charts. They will surely be able to produce an FM that's close enough. It could even be accurate without you  haps knowing. Despite all the "charts available", there is a constant tweaking and changing of FMs for various aircraft and then you have all those discussions about this FM is better than that etc. Quite often it seems to come from people with no actual experience.

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