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LD-10s are too good.


Skarp
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Hey guys the LD10s I’m sure are realistic but for gameplay sake could Deka bump the RC values up so tors have a similar intercept chance as the harms. I’m all about realism but the SAM ai is just not there yet and present no challenge. That or add a server option that bumps the RC up that doesn’t require modding.

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Or the mission creator could just throw in twice the amounts of SAMs or limit the amount of missiles.

 

One should go through those suggestions first before screwing around with realism.

 

I appreciate the reply but yes we have been tinkering with it quite a bit. Apart from removing the LD10s completely we would hope for an adjustment to their RC values. Adding more radars doesn’t really present much of a challenge to human players with no heavy scripting or server limiting amounts of Radar dishes. Until ED pump out improved ai and Sam traps it’s just too easy to sead with these weapons.

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It loses accuracy but it will keep going towards the same general point.

 

As to the OP, I'm opposed to limited the good and realistic parts of the game for the sake of the bad. ED should improve the AI and SAMs rather than 3rd parties limit themselves.

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LD-10's in their current state are nearly impossible to defend. The AGM-88C can be shot down by a set (2) of tors set to auto fairly easily. They can be over-saturated by sending several HARMs at them at once but they have no issues shooting down at least one or two.

 

On the other hand I was having huge issues trying to shoot down LD-10's. Out of 4 fired every 20 or so seconds 1 was intercepted, 1 missed the target, and the other 2 killed a set of tors. To intercept a single LD-10 I had 5 sets of tors (10 tors total) all set to red (radar always emitting).

 

These missiles are not all that different. They are of similar size and shape, yet one needs an inordinate amount of tors to shoot it down. This doesn't make any sense and I also believe they are too good for how they fly currently. Something must be going on back there that is causing an issue like this.

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How about no change to the LD-10, but a few GOOD Chinese SAMs by Deka?

Maybe combined with a challenge by Deka to ED: "Can you do something similar?" :D

 

Btw. BlueFlag has a script active that disables radar once a Magnum is in the air.

I don't think that it would be too hard to include that script in the standard-AI by ED.

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LD-10's in their current state are nearly impossible to defend. The AGM-88C can be shot down by a set (2) of tors set to auto fairly easily. They can be over-saturated by sending several HARMs at them at once but they have no issues shooting down at least one or two.

 

On the other hand I was having huge issues trying to shoot down LD-10's. Out of 4 fired every 20 or so seconds 1 was intercepted, 1 missed the target, and the other 2 killed a set of tors. To intercept a single LD-10 I had 5 sets of tors (10 tors total) all set to red (radar always emitting).

 

These missiles are not all that different. They are of similar size and shape, yet one needs an inordinate amount of tors to shoot it down. This doesn't make any sense and I also believe they are too good for how they fly currently. Something must be going on back there that is causing an issue like this.

 

Exactly, the RCS of the LD10 is that of the 120 (which is normal for DCS, a lot of weapons share/use the same RCS as its a very simple system anyways) it could possibly be moved up to match that of the Aim-7... But even then its a marginal gain and unlikely to fix the problem.

 

For reference, RCS of LD-10 is .0329. RCS of Aim-7 is .0366. (In DCS, real world values unkown) Obviously, the LD10 is similar to Aim-7 in shape. So it would have a similar RCS but possibly not exact due to unknown difference in materials/coating if it was even the exact shape to begin with. But RCS is very simple in DCS anyways.

 

But overall, this isn't so much a issue with the LD-10 itself. But more so, a simplistic AI system for SAMs and a RCS system that is composed of one number per weapon/aircraft which does not account for smaller/larger RCS signatures depending on angle of viewing.


Edited by ShadowFrost
Grammar
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How about no change to the LD-10, but a few GOOD Chinese SAMs by Deka?

Maybe combined with a challenge by Deka to ED: "Can you do something similar?" :D

 

Btw. BlueFlag has a script active that disables radar once a Magnum is in the air.

I don't think that it would be too hard to include that script in the standard-AI by ED.

 

The server we run on has about 800 ai units at any given time with many of those being moved by tac commanders. Because of this trying to run scripts at the same time as that would very likely crash the game.

 

That being said more AI from Deka would be very welcome. They have done a great job so far contributing units to CA and it's created a very fun ground war. More Chinese SAMs would definitely add more flavor to air defenses. It's a shame the US and NATO SAMs are down to a very small variety

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If Deka can prove their model is based on real statistics, leave it as it it. If it is proven unrealistic, alter it so it is.

 

Balance have no place in a simulation.

 

Time to prove the RCS of every weapon in the game. I'm sure someone somewhere has an answer to this.

 

Wait, it wouldn't even make sense to do so because RCS is so simple as it stands. How do they define RCS in DCS? Is it an average? Is it just one angle? Who knows because one number isn't how RCS works.


Edited by ShadowFrost
grammar
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As to the OP, I'm opposed to limited the good and realistic parts of the game for the sake of the bad. ED should improve the AI and SAMs rather than 3rd parties limit themselves.

 

There is a fine line between realism and god-mode mechanics. Otherwise, why not just have nuclear-tipped cruise missiles that we can lob across continent, with zero risk and 99% hit rate? I mean, it's realistic, right?

 

Instead of having mission designers jump through hoops to fix god-weapons and dumb AI, why not just let them adjust RC values? There is no harm in it and servers that want more realism can stick to defaults, while others can balance weapons according to their own needs.

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Have you seen the speed of Ld10? it's basically an amraam that homes on ground radar.

 

It's Ed's job to fix their shit.

 

This is what it is actually. LD10 is a SD10 with radiation seeker head. SD10 is the JF17's AMRAAM. All normal...

No balance required... just as close to real as possible !!!

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LD10's have certainly created a balance issue within the MP pvp environment.

 

Hawk and Blue sam batteries are easily destroyed and there is no real ability to intercept these missiles. Normally i would place SA15 units around strategic points however they do not intercept the LD10's.

 

In a test i did with 10 tor units 2 launched but they see the missile far to late to intercept and i've yet to see one actually destroyed.

 

I would also love ED to actually work on the IADS defence logic for SEAD so that AI radars are much smarter controlled, even closing off their radar if no ammunition etc would be a start and if a missile launch is detected again switching off (but with the option to enable / disable in tac command).

 

An increase in RCS or at least be comparative to the Harm should be reviewed.

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This is what it is actually. LD10 is a SD10 with radiation seeker head. SD10 is the JF17's AMRAAM. All normal...

No balance required... just as close to real as possible !!!

 

 

If you want as real as possible, there are at least a dozen more parameters that DCS doesn't even consider. A single RCS value doesn't come close to what's required to be realistic.

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It’s based on the Aspide, so materials not withstanding it’s RCS from body shape should be closest to Sparrow, the different fins may make it smaller, but it’s based on the Aspide/Skyflash/Sparrow anyways


Edited by AeriaGloria

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LD-10 and SD-10 are same form factor, I don't see Sams shooting down SD-10's or AIM-120's. Leave it as it is. Real.

 

lol XPC who mainly flies redfor / JF17 - magnum x4 and kills all sam's on blue bases...

 

This is about a wider discussion than our specific server, and balancing.

 

To discuss an AA missile in relation to SEAD is pointless, need to be discussing against Harm - get with it XPC lol.

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lol XPC who mainly flies redfor / JF17 - magnum x4 and kills all sam's on blue bases...

 

This is about a wider discussion than our specific server, and balancing.

 

To discuss an AA missile in relation to SEAD is pointless, need to be discussing against Harm - get with it XPC lol.

 

Why does it need to be discussed against the harm? It should be discussed against itself and what the flaws are that make it operate potentially erroneously. Having a equivalent is nothing to do with it.

 

The flaws being, IMO, simplistic SAM AI and RCS systems/modeling. Nothing directly related to Deka's modeling as they have more than met the status quo in terms of what is expected in a DCS module currently.

 

That's not to say there aren't issues with the bigger picture, but that's not directly an LD10 fault.


Edited by ShadowFrost
Grammar
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