foxwxl Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 LD-10 has some form of INS so it will try to hit the target still. IIRC Negative, INS drift has already be applied to LD10 ACT launch mode serval patch ago, it will NO LONGER hit SPI precisely. If the illuminator does not captured by LD-10, solo INS guidance will guarantee a miss in most case. Deka Ironwork Tester Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxwxl Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 LD10's have certainly created a balance issue within the MP pvp environment. Hawk and Blue sam batteries are easily destroyed and there is no real ability to intercept these missiles. Normally i would place SA15 units around strategic points however they do not intercept the LD10's. In a test i did with 10 tor units 2 launched but they see the missile far to late to intercept and i've yet to see one actually destroyed. I would also love ED to actually work on the IADS defence logic for SEAD so that AI radars are much smarter controlled, even closing off their radar if no ammunition etc would be a start and if a missile launch is detected again switching off (but with the option to enable / disable in tac command). An increase in RCS or at least be comparative to the Harm should be reviewed. It's not the LD10 creating a balance issue, it's the LOW SPEED HARM that creating the issue. The HARM will meant to be HIGH SPEED, is now flying with airbreak on, thus give SAM enough time to react and intercept:D Deka Ironwork Tester Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowFrost Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Negative, INS drift has already be applied to LD10 ACT launch mode serval patch ago, it will NO LONGER hit SPI precisely. If the illuminator does not captured by LD-10, solo INS guidance will guarantee a miss in most case. Key words, try. No guarantees, but its still going towards its last known location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaHeen-1 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Which is drifting due to ins drift; and puny whead and dcs requirement to physically touch ur target to hurt it meaningfully, it might as well pop when the target goes dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowFrost Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Which is drifting due to ins drift; and puny whead and dcs requirement to physically touch ur target to hurt it meaningfully, it might as well pop when the target goes dark. True, but I've had good luck against groups of units. It may miss the intended target and hit another apart of the sam site. Think HAWK/s Patriot formation that are really close together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester2138 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 LD10's have certainly created a balance issue within the MP pvp environment. . . . . An increase in RCS or at least be comparative to the Harm should be reviewed. First, this is meant to be a simulator. Balance is irrelevant. Every single module that gets released creates a balance issue in one way or another. Second, why should it be made similar to the HARM? It is not similar to the HARM IRL. The LD-10 is faster, smaller, and more modern. It makes sense that the brain-dead DCS SAMs have a very hard time shooting it down compared to the much older, worse HARM that needs huge improvements to match its real-world kinetics. That is a problem with the SAMs and the HARMs, not the LD-10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye_UK Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) Just no skill in using LD10's - i'd far rather drain them and use mk20's/cannon as that is where the fun is. Makes me laugh everyone that say's leave them as they are, obviously makes it easier for them to win. IMO makes player reliant on weapons systems and doesn't encourage or reward player skill by way of good virtual flying. Its the same crowd that enjoy dropping command centre targets from 100 miles away with AKG's or 25 miles away with GBU's. As for balance its a game so yes it is important like any strategy game ( which it is in terms of the overall campaign - quite a few of the people on here play a server that makes great use of combined arms and tac command so we have a full modelled ground war with PvP ground units). In this case balance is everything, unlike players competing pve in all honesty it is difficult to appreciate or comment on this unless you play pvp MP combined air and ground war. Feel free to come and try it, its the DDCS server which really is like no other public server in terms of the dynamic air / ground war. As for simulation , hmm so many things are nothing like the real world especially how players play the game. How many times i see people electing to use negative g, especially NOE ridge hopping to get the nose back down always makes me smile then harp on about how they want accurate simulation. Anyway that aside if you do want it to be a simulation then ARM's are intercepted in the real world by various blue for systems currently in game, unfortunately this is not modelled for the LD10. Edited April 28, 2020 by Hawkeye_UK --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DCS & BMS F14B | AV-8B | F15E | F18C | F16C | F5 | F86 | A10C | JF17 | Viggen |Mirage 2000 | F1 | L-39 | C101 | Mig15 | Mig21 | Mig29 | SU27 | SU33 | F15C | AH64 | MI8 | Mi24 | Huey | KA50 | Gazelle | P47 | P51 | BF109 | FW190A/D | Spitfire | Mossie | CA | Persian Gulf | Nevada | Normandy | Channel | Syria | South Atlantic | Sinai Liquid Cooled ROG 690 13700K @ 5.9Ghz | RTX3090 FTW Ultra | 64GB DDR4 3600 MHz | 2x2TB SSD m2 Samsung 980/990 | Pimax Crystal/Reverb G2 | MFG Crosswinds | Virpil T50/CM3 | Winwing & Cougar MFD's | Buddyfox UFC | Winwing TOP & CP | Jetseat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaHeen-1 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 ED problem. Go talk to them. Go scream "wagneeer!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeriaGloria Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Someone should just mod it to have same RCS as Sparrow and see if any SAMs can regularly intercept it, there’s no way it could have greater RCS then Sparrow, it’s basically a 21st century Shrike Black Shark Den Squadron Member: We are open to new recruits, click here to check us out or apply to join! https://blacksharkden.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye_UK Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Modding will not work for MP - Would not play on a server that did not force pure client or have no IC. To many people willing to cheat and cut corners sadly. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DCS & BMS F14B | AV-8B | F15E | F18C | F16C | F5 | F86 | A10C | JF17 | Viggen |Mirage 2000 | F1 | L-39 | C101 | Mig15 | Mig21 | Mig29 | SU27 | SU33 | F15C | AH64 | MI8 | Mi24 | Huey | KA50 | Gazelle | P47 | P51 | BF109 | FW190A/D | Spitfire | Mossie | CA | Persian Gulf | Nevada | Normandy | Channel | Syria | South Atlantic | Sinai Liquid Cooled ROG 690 13700K @ 5.9Ghz | RTX3090 FTW Ultra | 64GB DDR4 3600 MHz | 2x2TB SSD m2 Samsung 980/990 | Pimax Crystal/Reverb G2 | MFG Crosswinds | Virpil T50/CM3 | Winwing & Cougar MFD's | Buddyfox UFC | Winwing TOP & CP | Jetseat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeriaGloria Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Modding will not work for MP - Would not play on a server that did not force pure client or have no IC. To many people willing to cheat and cut corners sadly. I’m just saying as an experiment. The issue is to me that it uses AMRAAM RCS, where Sparrow would probably be closer. So if the RCS is modded to be like Sparrow and it doesn’t still get intercepted often it’s just becuase of its speed and size and it’s of questionable use(doesn’t look like that big of RCS difference in LUA files), but if it does get intercepted regularly by modern SAMs with its RCS modded to Sparrow levels then there is an argument that it’s RCS should be increased to near Sparrow level so that it has the same limitations as other DCS ARM with their own specific RCS. Black Shark Den Squadron Member: We are open to new recruits, click here to check us out or apply to join! https://blacksharkden.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thax Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 It was all fine when the AGM154Cs were released for the hornet, no one said anything about it. But the moment a redfor plane gets something close to half as good as that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester2138 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Just no skill in using LD10's - i'd far rather drain them and use mk20's/cannon as that is where the fun is. Makes me laugh everyone that say's leave them as they are, obviously makes it easier for them to win. IMO makes player reliant on weapons systems and doesn't encourage or reward player skill by way of good virtual flying. Its the same crowd that enjoy dropping command centre targets from 100 miles away with AKG's or 25 miles away with GBU's. Sounds like you're in the wrong game. This is the DCS forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaHeen-1 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 All this time since release, I've only ever properly used LD10 once. Only to confirm that I could deploy multiple in non-ACT modes in quick succession. Why would I use them when I can slap whole sites on MP servers with two staggered GB6-SFW and slap down any hornets with SD10s that dared to protest the senseless cruelty? In fact having to carry anything other than 4xSD10 pisses me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drag80 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Well...First SD10 was nerfed now I believe its LD10s turn. The real problem is that people are not ready to admit that other countries can develop better weapons. I guess LD10 is a more modern weapon and can have better technologies. Its slim fast but yes it misses its target sometime due to smaller seeeker head. Pretty realistic I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaHeen-1 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Errr SD10 is now stronger than ever. You can blap noobs from like 50nm out at 40kft And no the issue here is that ED SAMs are shit. But for some reason people are coming here to ask Deka to nerf their stuff so ED's shit becomes acceptable to them again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skarp Posted April 28, 2020 Author Share Posted April 28, 2020 Errr SD10 is now stronger than ever. You can blap noobs from like 50nm out at 40kft And no the issue here is that ED SAMs are shit. But for some reason people are coming here to ask Deka to nerf their stuff so ED's shit becomes acceptable to them again. Because it’s going to be a year maybe 2 until we see ED give us Sam AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auditor Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) LD-10's in their current state are nearly impossible to defend. The AGM-88C can be shot down by a set (2) of tors set to auto fairly easily. They can be over-saturated by sending several HARMs at them at once but they have no issues shooting down at least one or two. On the other hand I was having huge issues trying to shoot down LD-10's. Out of 4 fired every 20 or so seconds 1 was intercepted, 1 missed the target, and the other 2 killed a set of tors. To intercept a single LD-10 I had 5 sets of tors (10 tors total) all set to red (radar always emitting). The problem, I've found, is that AGM-88Cs are like cows by the time they reach their target. They have TERRIBLE problems with energy conservation. I've seen GBU-12s be faster than them on terminal impact. Is this realistic? Who knows, but the Sparrow in DCS falls out of the sky before the AGM-88C does at speeds the AGM-88C typically hits its target at. The LD-10, if you watch it fly, is almost always at a much faster velocity than the HARM upon terminal impact with the target. Faster velocity = less chance for missiles to shoot at it. If nothing else, that behavior is realistic as speed beats interception every time. Perhaps the one you should be pointing a criticizing finger at isn't the LD-10. Also, I'm seeing that "b" word again pop up in this thread, balance. DCS is a simulator, and to make things worse, we have no idea if either of the missiles are working correctly. Trying to balance one against the other is a fool's errand because the AGM-88C could easily change one patch to another and become a cat and mouse game of trying to balance against it. But even worse than that is the condescending tone from the ones trying to claim that it takes "no skill" to use the weapon. Just no skill in using LD10's - i'd far rather drain them and use mk20's/cannon as that is where the fun is. Makes me laugh everyone that say's leave them as they are, obviously makes it easier for them to win. Like this. It shows a distinct lack of familiarity with the aircraft. I wonder if the people using the balance card even know that the LD-10 lacks half of the features the HARM has? Or if they even care? Errr SD10 is now stronger than ever. You can blap noobs from like 50nm out at 40kftAnd adding to this: The AIM-120C has now, as it should; the flight profile of both missiles is very similar. Edited April 28, 2020 by Auditor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaHeen-1 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Imagine dcs becomes like those shitty mobile RTS where one faction is literally a reskin of the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokodehortaleza Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 IADs AI is pretty much required for a credible dynamic campaign, so I hope it's on EDs radar. Regarding LD-10, same thing as happened with SD-10. No, Deka doesn't need to nerf the LD. If HARM is underperforming (I don't know that it is), ED would have to fix it. Or add the AARGM, which would be more contemporary to LD-10. Why wouldn't anyone expect a 2010s missile to outperform a 1980s one is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auditor Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 And that's also a good point, rallying to add the AARGM seems like it should be a much more important milestone for people who think this is a problem instead of coming to the JF-17 forum to complain about the LD-10, a much more modern missile. I would rally for the AARGM if I thought it would result in it being added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye_UK Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 "Like this. It shows a distinct lack of familiarity with the aircraft. I wonder if the people using the balance card even know that the LD-10 lacks half of the features the HARM has? Or if they even care?" --------- I'd love to know which area of the virtual JF17, its sub systems or weapons system's i'm not familiar with? You need to complete some testing prior to implying the Harm is a better system, as your very much misguided currently. Just to clarify we are talking about in game, this is all virtual lol. In game SEAD bears little resemblance to real life tactical application, however that is due to the very simple engine that its currently working on re AI radar. Also people all to often i hear going on SEAD missions with GBU's/JSTOWS/AKG aka DEAD. I do not expect this area to develop that much as it also relies heavily on jamming employment, the frequencies and bands used, the distance and burn ratio, which again your not going to get modelling within a civilian game. Fact is in game LD10's currently are not intercepted and have a very high pk even when radar is switched off (ps if you think INS guidance to a known point will in real life result in a kill your mistaken, once that radar goes dark that missile is going to miss). If you know exactly where a IADS target is then the ATO would not send a Harm Strike for DEAD, SEAD would be fragged as part of the strike encase the radar's came back on to defend the strike with ARM but would not be tasked to kill with that system. In game Harm's are not intercepted and here lies the problem. Again unless you play competitive MP pvp including both air and ground warfare you will not understand the problem. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DCS & BMS F14B | AV-8B | F15E | F18C | F16C | F5 | F86 | A10C | JF17 | Viggen |Mirage 2000 | F1 | L-39 | C101 | Mig15 | Mig21 | Mig29 | SU27 | SU33 | F15C | AH64 | MI8 | Mi24 | Huey | KA50 | Gazelle | P47 | P51 | BF109 | FW190A/D | Spitfire | Mossie | CA | Persian Gulf | Nevada | Normandy | Channel | Syria | South Atlantic | Sinai Liquid Cooled ROG 690 13700K @ 5.9Ghz | RTX3090 FTW Ultra | 64GB DDR4 3600 MHz | 2x2TB SSD m2 Samsung 980/990 | Pimax Crystal/Reverb G2 | MFG Crosswinds | Virpil T50/CM3 | Winwing & Cougar MFD's | Buddyfox UFC | Winwing TOP & CP | Jetseat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeriaGloria Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Even with active emitting I see it miss all the time since the INS update in ACT mode, with a 22kg warhead I’ve seen as much as 3 missiles to hit an active shooting SA-15 Black Shark Den Squadron Member: We are open to new recruits, click here to check us out or apply to join! https://blacksharkden.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye_UK Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) PS also yes depending on launch parameters and motor burn out rate it is quite possible that bombs could have a higher impact velocity in real life. Your missing the point ARM's are not launched to kill the IADS they are there to close them down, hence the name suppression which then allow the target to be hit, whatever it is that the IADS is protecting. So for example even a dumb Mk 84 released from only 3000 feet level release will hit at circa 550mph into the target if dropped at 410 knots on the run in, impact angle circa 33 degrees. Edited April 28, 2020 by Hawkeye_UK --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DCS & BMS F14B | AV-8B | F15E | F18C | F16C | F5 | F86 | A10C | JF17 | Viggen |Mirage 2000 | F1 | L-39 | C101 | Mig15 | Mig21 | Mig29 | SU27 | SU33 | F15C | AH64 | MI8 | Mi24 | Huey | KA50 | Gazelle | P47 | P51 | BF109 | FW190A/D | Spitfire | Mossie | CA | Persian Gulf | Nevada | Normandy | Channel | Syria | South Atlantic | Sinai Liquid Cooled ROG 690 13700K @ 5.9Ghz | RTX3090 FTW Ultra | 64GB DDR4 3600 MHz | 2x2TB SSD m2 Samsung 980/990 | Pimax Crystal/Reverb G2 | MFG Crosswinds | Virpil T50/CM3 | Winwing & Cougar MFD's | Buddyfox UFC | Winwing TOP & CP | Jetseat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger-II Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) First, this is meant to be a simulator. Balance is irrelevant. Every single module that gets released creates a balance issue in one way or another. Second, why should it be made similar to the HARM? It is not similar to the HARM IRL. The LD-10 is faster, smaller, and more modern. It makes sense that the brain-dead DCS SAMs have a very hard time shooting it down compared to the much older, worse HARM that needs huge improvements to match its real-world kinetics. That is a problem with the SAMs and the HARMs, not the LD-10. ^ This. The LD-10 is a latest generation ARM. It can even target emitters such as AWACS and other aircraft (if their RADARs are on). AFAIK AGM-88 can't do this (it must recognize the emitter to hit it). LD-10 is basically "5th gen ARM" with all that entails. It can fly to a steerpoint and search; it can target an actively targetting emitter, or it can fly in a straight line until it sees something of interest. It has seek-and-store capability, meaning it can fly with zero targets, see something, look at it, remember the position, then guide there inertially. I'm getting quite bored of this "balance" nonsense. Is the f*ing thing realistic/accurate or not? :doh: If you want balance in MP, put the same aircraft and weapons on BOTH sides. Problem solved! Edited April 28, 2020 by Tiger-II Motorola 68000 | 1 Mb | Debug port "When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover. The JF-17 is not better than the F-16; it's different. It's how you fly that counts. "An average aircraft with a skilled pilot, will out-perform the superior aircraft with an average pilot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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