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Well with all due respect, I-16 is effing confusing


DmitriKozlowsky

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I hate all tail-draggers in DCS. So effing confounding.

 

I-16.

Trie to take off. Uncommanded right or left yaw, regardless of rudder. Cut power, results in violent ground loop, with flip over. No breaking on my part. Without any control input what so ever. I try to counter with rudder, does not work. What in the F is wrong here?

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Go to Special settings tab in DCS, and disable rudder assist or whatever it's called.

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Rudder only starts to rally make a difference above a certain speed. raise the Engine power slowly and gradualy and use the Wheel breakes to stay straight until your Rudder works. Duddenly cutting power rapidly changes the speed of the propeller with that the torque effect it is having on your Plane.

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For you, yes.

 

I agree, and am good with that. Untill I figure out, just what the F I am doing Rong, what is the deal with taildraggers? Is it all me, is it DCS, is it real world? Why taildraggers hate me?

I learned to fly DCS: Yak-52 in a day. I can land it on field, on road, on grass. Manual start, manual taxi, t/o, fly, land on any flat hard surface including grass. I am fairly OK with Gazelle, and all the DCS rotors, A-10, F/A-18C. But TF-51, I-16, Spitfire. I cannot fly them. I do not understand , why a tail dragger goes out of control on takeoff, by going in either hard left or right yaw, while on the ground. Why my rudder action is ineffective. It is a mystery. But thanks for passive-aggressive attitude. Much appreciated.

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As mentioned above and trying to clarify. Rudder effectiveness at low speeds is practically nil. To help with staying straight, smooth yet quick power application (don't take forever to get the power set), will help keep the torque controlled. Also, keep the tail planted by pulling back on the stick UNTIL the airspeed is high enough to have effective rudder control. This speed will be aircraft specific so just be aware. Once you have that control, need to let the tail up smoothly and stay on the mains before the aircraft tries to lift off to early, resulting in a stall. A bit more airspeed (above the aircrafts stall speed) and an ever so slight pull and the aircraft should lift off cleanly.

 

Good luck!

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Well, I don't have that aircraft, but those techniques should definitely help with the other taildraggers. That is an older aircraft (also 3rd party) so it appears to have some unique attributes to contend with and from what others are saying about it, need good brake control. What do you use for brakes in your setup?

 

Edit: To my surprize, it looks like the I-16 does indeed use independent left/right brakes. That is good news and should help a lot. If you find that they are to sensitive, on the toe brake axis, choose axis tune, then select SLIDER and put in a reverse curve (usually around -20 works well for me). This will desensitize the initial movement of the toe brake, giving a better feel usually, while still leaving full brake power in the later half of the movement.


Edited by Shahdoh
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Untill I figure out, just what the F I am doing Rong, what is the deal with taildraggers? Is it all me, is it DCS, is it real world? Why taildraggers hate me?

I learned to fly DCS: Yak-52 in a day. I can land it on field, on road, on grass. Manual start, manual taxi, t/o, fly, land on any flat hard surface including grass. I am fairly OK with Gazelle, and all the DCS rotors, A-10, F/A-18C. But TF-51, I-16, Spitfire. I cannot fly them. I do not understand , why a tail dragger goes out of control on takeoff, by going in either hard left or right yaw, while on the ground. Why my rudder action is ineffective. It is a mystery.

 

It's more of a real world, although some say rudder effectiveness in DCS might be a tad on the low side in low speed conditions...

 

Without going too deep into physics, all tricycle gear planes (so Yak-52 as well) are inherently directionally stable on the ground because of main gear being located behind center of gravity and swiveling wheel being in front of it. So they always "want" to straighten themselves while rolling on the ground.

 

Conversely, all taildragger planes are inherently directionally unstable on the ground because of mains being located in front of center of gravity and swivelling tail wheel being aft of it. So they always "want" to groundloop while rolling. Some more, some less (I do not own I-16, but its not the first time I read it's a b..tch), but that's just the nature of taildragger beast.

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I agree, and am good with that. Untill I figure out, just what the F I am doing Rong, what is the deal with taildraggers? Is it all me, is it DCS, is it real world? Why taildraggers hate me?

I learned to fly DCS: Yak-52 in a day. I can land it on field, on road, on grass. Manual start, manual taxi, t/o, fly, land on any flat hard surface including grass. I am fairly OK with Gazelle, and all the DCS rotors, A-10, F/A-18C. But TF-51, I-16, Spitfire. I cannot fly them. I do not understand , why a tail dragger goes out of control on takeoff, by going in either hard left or right yaw, while on the ground. Why my rudder action is ineffective. It is a mystery. But thanks for passive-aggressive attitude. Much appreciated.

 

Going from tricycle landing gear jets and even prop planes (like the Yak) to tail-draggers is difficult. You really do need to kinda change how you think about ground handling and you REALLY need to pay attention to how much throttle you are applying and how fast you let the plane get on the ground. Just taxiing is a process you will have to practice. It is hard at first but if you take things REALLY slow, have a VERY light hand on the throttle, and understand how the differential braking or even tail-wheel steering works (depending on the aircraft) FULLY, you should be able to get the plane from parked to the runway.

 

Take-off is another difficult thing. You need to pay attention to the steps as they are outlined in the manual and like taxiing, you need to have a good handle on throttle control and not apply throttle too slow or too fast. You need to be smooth and deliberate as you add power but you don't want to take too long about it. Again. This is something you will need to deliberately practice and accept that there will be more than a few burning airplane wrecks on the side of the runway as a result of your efforts.

 

Some other helpful hints.

 

1.) When you go to take off, ONLY use as much flaps as you REALLY need. In a relatively clean configuration, most WWII aircraft in DCS don't really need flaps for take off and having your flaps out too much can make it harder to take off without stalling and winging over into the ground. If you are carrying a heavy load, only add a bit of flaps. If you are clean, don't bother at all.

 

2.) Every WWII aircraft in DCS has some form of trim and there is a specific way you should set that trim to make your life easier on take-off. This is especially the case with the P-51 and Spitfire where rudder trim is really, really important.

 

3.) Precise and careful rudder and differential braking will be required during the take-off roll. It takes practice and a willingness to really learn how to properly do it but once it "clicks" in your head, you will find take-offs pretty straightforward. Like taxiing, less input is better. Be careful about how much rudder and brake you are applying and don't let the aircraft get ahead of you.

 

Practicing is going to be a important factor in getting this stuff right but what's more important is practicing good habits and actually learning the correct process (and not just some vague one you might find on youtube that may actually make things harder for you). It is frustrating at first but given time and a bit of elbow grease, it is something you can certainly get pretty good at.

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For you, yes.

No rather this modules which is basically a gear simulator is just compensating lack of substance with a masochistic point of view at FM.

 

I can fly all the props in DCS with every assist turned off from day one. With this so called module never ever been able to take off. True after 5 attempts I lost interest. Money thrown to window. This module is part of the triad that put me off vis-à-vis de DCS FM. Before these I had the impression DCS FM is some sort of magic connection with reality... after these... the veil had been removed.

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it's very doable, make sure you're using the right amount of throttle, else you'll have too much or too little torque for your rudder to deal with. smoothly throttle up until the manifold pressure needle points to the 12 o clock position and keep it there. your goal is to get rolling straight enough for long enough time to get your rear lifted into the air, after that you'll be more or less safe from any bad behavior.

 

the uncommanded yawing is characteristic of all taildraggers, you will have to dance on the rudder pedals a fair bit. the sooner you start to counter the less trouble you will have.


Edited by probad
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Why I can taxi the other planes? Why I don't feel the plane go crazy on the other planes? This plane is like 109 K4 used to be when first got out. And at fault is the fact that some extraordinary "numbers" (like huge torque, narrow gear, etc) are taken in consideration but others are not well simulated (like ground friction and what not) and this makes the plane act absolut crazy and probably no real life pilot would dare to climb in such plane if they would be so unpredictable even in slow taxying.

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Going from tricycle landing gear jets and even prop planes (like the Yak) to tail-draggers is difficult. You really do need to kinda change how you think about ground handling and you REALLY need to pay attention to how much throttle you are applying and how fast you let the plane get on the ground. Just taxiing is a process you will have to practice. It is hard at first but if you take things REALLY slow, have a VERY light hand on the throttle, and understand how the differential braking or even tail-wheel steering works (depending on the aircraft) FULLY, you should be able to get the plane from parked to the runway.

 

Take-off is another difficult thing. You need to pay attention to the steps as they are outlined in the manual and like taxiing, you need to have a good handle on throttle control and not apply throttle too slow or too fast. You need to be smooth and deliberate as you add power but you don't want to take too long about it. Again. This is something you will need to deliberately practice and accept that there will be more than a few burning airplane wrecks on the side of the runway as a result of your efforts.

 

Some other helpful hints.

 

1.) When you go to take off, ONLY use as much flaps as you REALLY need. In a relatively clean configuration, most WWII aircraft in DCS don't really need flaps for take off and having your flaps out too much can make it harder to take off without stalling and winging over into the ground. If you are carrying a heavy load, only add a bit of flaps. If you are clean, don't bother at all.

 

2.) Every WWII aircraft in DCS has some form of trim and there is a specific way you should set that trim to make your life easier on take-off. This is especially the case with the P-51 and Spitfire where rudder trim is really, really important.

 

3.) Precise and careful rudder and differential braking will be required during the take-off roll. It takes practice and a willingness to really learn how to properly do it but once it "clicks" in your head, you will find take-offs pretty straightforward. Like taxiing, less input is better. Be careful about how much rudder and brake you are applying and don't let the aircraft get ahead of you.

 

Practicing is going to be a important factor in getting this stuff right but what's more important is practicing good habits and actually learning the correct process (and not just some vague one you might find on youtube that may actually make things harder for you). It is frustrating at first but given time and a bit of elbow grease, it is something you can certainly get pretty good at.

 

 

 

Thank you for your assistance. But, I regret, to inform you, that everything you wrote has done zip. Nada, nothing, no change. The aircraft just do what they want to do, and I have no control. None, zero. Once wheel touch the ground, and I honor the tenet of 'One bounce go around", as soon as aircraft slows down for tail wheel to settle, everything goes to krap. Everytime, without fail. In every direction but straight. If I feel it yawing to left, I right pedal a little to correct, DOES NOT WORK! Left yaw continues, so I try to arrest it by more right pedal. Then aircraft abruptly reverses and violently groundloops and flips on it own, even though I am not using brakes. Obviously just telling me to "RUDDERWALK! RUDDERWALK!" is grossly insufficient. As rudder walking is not doing it for me. Actually I am not doing rudder walking right. But as I cannot tell what is correct rudder walk for a given situation, it is an instruction bereft of meaing. In short it is not going to 'click' by itself. Training guides are themselves kind of uselss to me, as they all follow the same language. Rudder walk to keep aircraft straight.

I am having bittter flashbacks to my first marksmanship instructor when I was in US Army BCT at Ft. Knox. This guy could shoot. But Jesus, he could not explain , assist, or instruct the proper procedure for good marksmanship with M-16A2. That was a frigging nightmare. Becouse all he kept saying was "Its all breathing and triggerpull", never explaining what the bleeping letter F he was imparting. Because it was lacking experiential context for student. Same thing with rudder walk. Since I have no clue as to what correct rudder walk is, I am unable to strive for it. As aircraft does not obey rudder input.It loops, and it flips, and thats all it does, regardless of what I do with rudder and stick.

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I can't really help you, but I can tell you that I hate taildraggers, too. I haven't touched my WWII aicraft since ages and I don't think I ever will again. Their ground handling is just ... :music_whistling:

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If I feel it yawing to left, I right pedal a little to correct, DOES NOT WORK! Left yaw continues, so I try to arrest it by more right pedal. Then aircraft abruptly reverses and violently groundloops and flips on it own, even though I am not using brakes.

it sounds like you're being too gentle with it, and so the yaw is allowed to fully develop. once the yaw noticeably develops like that, it's already too late for any correction other than aborting the takeoff attempt, there's no point in even trying to 'salvage' the roll.

check the yaw immediately if there's even a hint of onset with a quick, authoritative stab of the pedals to full deflection, then let go and assess for new yaw trend.


Edited by probad
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The I-16 is the most difficult taildragger in DCS World, and I would not recommend to start with that plane. My first taildragger was the FW-190D and that was difficult enough. Our biggest problem is that, in the sim, we don't get feedback through our body and the organs in our ears. So we must train our eyes to see the slightest pitch, yaw and rotate movements and develop the right reflexes to counteract any unwanted or excessive movements. These aircrafts were challenging even in real life, and that makes them so interesting in the sim. We have the advantage in that we don't get burned or killed when we have screwed up. Even after hundreds of hours in these warbirds they are still challenging and I love that. So, the question is whether you are up to the challenge or if you want it to be easy.

PS: I find the P-51 the easiest, in terms of take-off and landing, among the warbirds. Might be the better choice for starting. You can try with the free TF-51.

You are having issues with the rudder and I understand that. But just realize that, because of the way aerodynamics work, the rudder like all other control surfaces have little or no effect at speeds below 100 km/h. Therefore, at the beginning of the takeoff run, the rudder has no effect. But, as speed increases the rudder becomes more and more effective. If I'm not mistaken, the effectivity increases progressively (more than linearly) with speed. My technique for takeoff with the I-16 is:

1. No flaps (flaps are only used for landing in the I-16 and in the Spit).

2. As the propeller torque pulls you to the left, I start the run with full right rudder and the stick pulled back.

3. I start the run with full engine power. This garantees that I get very quickly through the state where the rudder has no authority.

4. The rudder will very quickly become effective so you have to reduce rudder input rather quickly to avoid veering right.

5. at about 100 km/h start letting the stick gently go to neutral so the tail lifts off and continue, until the plane lifts off by itself. Don't force the lift-off by pulling back to soon or you will flip over and crash.

This works for me all the time and it's fun.


Edited by LeCuvier

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The I-16 is relatively short and doesn't really have the ability to o lock its tail wheel. As far as I know it is connected with a spring to the rudder pedals. Compared to other Warbirds It's Engine is a big part of its weight and a large part of this engine's weight is turning. In combination with the somewhat flimsy gear this isn't an easy task. I would suggest keeping an eye on the turn and bank indicator. It will show you that you are drifting before you notice it.

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it sounds like you're being too gentle with it, and so the yaw is allowed to fully develop. once the yaw noticeably develops like that, it's already too late for any correction other than aborting the takeoff attempt, there's no point in even trying to 'salvage' the roll.

check the yaw immediately if there's even a hint of onset with a quick, authoritative stab of the pedals to full deflection, then let go and assess for new yaw trend.

 

If I am aggresive with pedals, taildraggers ground loop.

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makes no sense to me, how can you have 'too little rudder authority' as you describe, yet strong enough to make you groundloop? i think its not the rudder at work here.

 

why dont you submit a replay of your attempts because words are not working


Edited by probad
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