SAR mode for the air to ground radar?

[G B]

Have you ever heard about F/A-18D ?

 

Yes, squadrons don’t always use the full set of possibilities of their aircraft. So what ?

Does it mean that EXP 3 wouldn’t be available on F/A-18C because they spent the last years doing CAS missions ?

 

Since Desert Storm only the F-15E is remaining. So there may be a shortage of dedicated assets and crew...

And the SAR mode isn’t specific to low altitude. So I don’t see the necessity of 2 man crew to use it.

 

Do you really want to do CAS, by definition close to friendlies, and drop on a radar designation? Drop on a blob?

[Lex Talionis]

..... much YouTube theory crafting going on.

[jojo]

Do you really want to do CAS, by definition close to friendlies, and drop on a radar designation? Drop on a blob?

 

No, off course. I was talking about strike/ AI.

 

But lately, we are often reading the AG radar isn’t used in combat mission.

I’m just saying this is because since 2001 most western air forces are mainly doing CAS.

[Harlikwin]

4:19 to 4:28.

 

is a A/G map image. But honestly because its a VHS era of recording the quality of the recording itself is subapr. and is not an ideal indication, nor do you see any of the modes operated.

 

 

IF people did some open source hunting on thier own theres at a decent ballpark from open sources you can get of what to expect from imaging quality of generation of mechanical radars of a comparable generation and timeframes.

 

Yeah that bit did look like radar.

[Wizard_03]

And in inclement weather with GPS denied single seat 4th gen platforms will be providing escort and SEAD support for the two seat 4th gen platforms that go in and perform the strike... There are assets that specialize in that stuff and train to it as a primary mission set, whereas other platforms do not. Reference desert storm... F-16's and F-18s had Air to ground radar and "all weather" capability, but those mission sets were given to specialists every time: A-6's F-111's and F-15E's.

 

You don't gain/regain a non used skill set overnight to 100% proficiency, that's why fighter squadrons train all the time to specific mission sets, and don't use the systems that aren't useful for their specific mission sets. Also why you have two seat jets around, so that you can compartmentalize those skill sets into two crew members.

 

Your right about the usage. But that's a very US mindset, not every operator does it that way. Most countries use what's available and train their aircrews to do everything because they do not have the luxury of specialized equipment for every senario.

[ebabil]

If we have a SAR radar in DCS, most likely our GPU's will explode

[G B]

No, off course. I was talking about strike/ AI.

 

But lately, we are often reading the AG radar isn’t used in combat mission.

I’m just saying this is because since 2001 most western air forces are mainly doing CAS.

 

Strike/AI....still not using it.

[Fri13]

Multiple pilots who have flown the legacy hornet recently commented that they only use it to spot bad weather.. quality is not good

 

The 73 is probably a little better than whats in the video but not by much

 

Has any of those written here etc?

I know only IRL pilots who still fly same hornet DCS has.

[jasonbirder]

Strike/AI....still not using it.

 

 

They don't train for bad weather and/or degraded GPS environments?

Seems odd to me...but what do I know!

[Lex Talionis]

Has any of those written here etc?

I know only IRL pilots who still fly same hornet DCS has.

Yes

[Fri13]

Your right about the usage. But that's a very US mindset, not every operator does it that way. Most countries use what's available and train their aircrews to do everything because they do not have the luxury of specialized equipment for every senario.

 

If you example have airforce that has only 50-100 fighters, you are not going to specialized for one tasking, you need to be as good on everything as guy on next country.

 

Why there are great pilots that succeed in multiple scenarios.

 

That is the main point of the multirole fighter that you don't have specialized aircrafts for different tasks like strike bomber and anti-ship fighter, but you get to do it all with one by changing layout.

[Fri13]

Yes

 

Links or info about where to find? Search brings just too many hits to go through.

 

Thanks.

[Lex Talionis]

They don't train for bad weather and/or degraded GPS environments?

Seems odd to me...but what do I know!

 

Yes they do.

 

Your assumption that training in various degraded environments can only be solved by an AG radar is incorrect.

[G B]

They don't train for bad weather and/or degraded GPS environments?

Seems odd to me...but what do I know!

 

Oh they train to that alright. Sorry to have bursted your bubble. Enjoy the blobs!

[Swift.]

Links or info about where to find? Search brings just too many hits to go through.

 

Thanks.

 

Lex and G B were hornet pilots.

[KlarSnow]

Regardless of how many assets you have there are only so many hours/days/weeks/months in a year that you can train. reference F-15C vs F-15E/F-18/F-16, which is going to be better at A/A (not just purely on the kinematics or capabilities of the jet), the platform that has to split focus between all of the mission sets they are required to do, or the one that can purely dedicate themselves to a single mission set. This isn't saying one fighter pilot is better than another, its the reality that how much time you spend practicing something is directly correlated to how good you are at it, if you have to practice more things in the same amount of time, you will necessarily not be as proficient. Again this isn't saying Hornets are "bad" at A/A or F-15's are "good" at A/A, its more saying there are limitations in proficiency that a multirole aircraft that has to train to every mission and system possible will have, regardless of how "Good" the aircrew are.

 

Everybody always wishes they had more time to train at various mission sets, and nothing is more humbling than trying to do something for the first time in a year. You can read and study on it, but if this is the only time this year you are going to practice a particular attack/system/skillset, while you may be proficient, you aren't going to be as proficient as the guy who does the same thing every other day.

Edited May 6, 2020 by KlarSnow

[Fri13]

its the reality that how much time you spend practicing something is directly correlated to how good you are at it, if you have to practice more things in the same amount of time, you will necessarily not be as proficient.

 

Actually not so.

 

In reality there are two separate things: Skill and Talent.

 

Skill comes from the time spent to practive it.

Talent comes from the person ability to learn something quickly.

 

That is the big difference.

 

You can train as much you want but there can be a talented person who learns it far far faster and always will be better than you.

 

This is something that will end many aviation careers because many pilots lack specific talents and no matter how much they train, they can't acquire the skill required for it.

And so it is on many other areas in the world, someone can pick up balls and start joggling because they have talent for it. Someone can train for weeks and not get past two items.

Someone can learn a new language effortless manner, while someone can study and study but never learn to use the language or can just have skill to learn couple languages.

 

And when you choose to your air force talented people, they will succeed in multiple different areas far better than typical pilots that needs to spend too much time for each to learn them acceptable.

 

It is just a thing that makes us all different, and even if someone would be a true super pilot, they can be totally terrible car drivers or completely incapable to even hold a tool to fix basic things...

[Swift.]

Fri13 out of curiosity, are you from a military aviation background? You speak with the conviction of someone who is.

[Kev2go]

Fri13 out of curiosity, are you from a military aviation background? You speak with the conviction of someone who is.

 

there is sense to what he is saying. He doesn't need to be a fighter pilot. What he says is a generalization but more or less consistent with modern psychology and neuroscience related fields that have explore such things under cognitive and developmental branches.

[Harlikwin]

there is sense to what he is saying. He doesn't need to be a fighter pilot. What he says is a generalization but more or less consistent with modern psychology and neuroscience related fields that have explore such things under cognitive and developmental branches.

 

Or in general what people in the military also observe. Some soldiers having innate talent(s) and the ability to learn skillsets quickly vs having to have something drilled into you that you still can't do that well.

[Wizard_03]

Regardless of how many assets you have there are only so many hours/days/weeks/months in a year that you can train. reference F-15C vs F-15E/F-18/F-16, which is going to be better at A/A (not just purely on the kinematics or capabilities of the jet), the platform that has to split focus between all of the mission sets they are required to do, or the one that can purely dedicate themselves to a single mission set. This isn't saying one fighter pilot is better than another, its the reality that how much time you spend practicing something is directly correlated to how good you are at it, if you have to practice more things in the same amount of time, you will necessarily not be as proficient. Again this isn't saying Hornets are "bad" at A/A or F-15's are "good" at A/A, its more saying there are limitations in proficiency that a multirole aircraft that has to train to every mission and system possible will have, regardless of how "Good" the aircrew are.

 

Everybody always wishes they had more time to train at various mission sets, and nothing is more humbling than trying to do something for the first time in a year. You can read and study on it, but if this is the only time this year you are going to practice a particular attack/system/skillset, while you may be proficient, you aren't going to be as proficient as the guy who does the same thing every other day.

 

 

That can be construed as both an advantage and a disadvantage. On the one hand yes I think your absolutely correct, the person that spends X amount of time dedicated to a specific mission set is going to be better the person who spends >X amount of time on it. No question.

 

However now your depending on having that specific person and that specific equipment in the right place at the right time. Its great when it works and everything goes exactly according to plan, and It doesn't when it doesn't. There's now an intelligence chain in your ability to execute missions effectively that can be exploited.

 

 

I think the general strategy moving forward in the 21st century is getting away from specialized units and focusing more on general readiness, across the board. Something like an B-52H or F-22A is amazing and highly effective and the aircrews are naturally very skilled at what they do. But it does you zero good if they are 1 day away from deployment at any given time and place but you need a target hit in a half hour for it to matter. That's where rapid response organizations like the USN/USMC and platforms like the F/A-18E/F or F-35C come in handy. They are worth their weight in gold because that's all you have on day 1.

 

The US strikes a balance by having both forces and options available to them but most countries do not, and when they can't or don't, multi-role and flexibility is typically preferred in both equipment and crews.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Wizard_03

[ChickenSim]

KlarSnow isn't talking about individual learning theory, he's talking about military training and readiness. Generally speaking, a community's proficiency can be measured in flight hours and sorties spent training and practicing and honing those skills.

 

Yes, there are outliers. Individuals that "get it" faster than others, and individuals who struggle. The presence of outliers is so not the point that, as a community, there are only so many hours in the day for pilots to train and instructors to train them, and consequently how good that community is going to be at accomplishing a mission.

 

Just because one dude in the squadron is a natural at everything (which I highly doubt occurs in reality) doesn't mean you can task that squadron to meet all those missions and expect them to excel at them.

[G B]

Agree with Chicken. Furthermore, each individual mission is such a perishable skill that the division of time to train to them matches what Klarsnow was saying. These skills are much much more perishable than the general community realizes. Hence training to just one or two, really makes a very huge impact.

[Lex Talionis]

..... the mental jujitsu going on, this thread is starting to turn into what the G override during BFM thread degraded into.

[KlarSnow]

Quick anecdote from a training sortie a few years ago. We had been doing a lot of CAS and Air to Air stuff in our training cycle the two or three months prior. I get slated for a night flight range ride to go practice bombing a radar reflector raft out in the middle of the ocean (Donna Nook range in the UK if you wanna look it up) I'm flying as the number 1 WSO, my number 2 WSO is the squadron weapons officer, one of the smartest "gets it the best" dudes I know.

 

We go out to do night TF LGB lofts over the water. nobody has done much with the A/G mapping in a couple of months because that's not what we were practicing. After a solid brief we go out, and the Weapons Officer completely goons up his mapping and switchology leading to several assessed misses on the target. We get back and he crushes himself in the debrief for not having practiced this "basic" stuff often enough over the last few months of flights and sims.

 

Hes easily one of the best/smartest aviators I know, and the target was one of the easiest for this kind of attack, literally the only thing out in the middle of the ocean that we had precise coordinates to. But you can still miss if you are not practiced and proficient for what is going on. And this is only a couple of months of not doing "basic" skills leading to atrophy. Relying on innate skill/old man strength can only get you so far, and just being an athlete and doing it doesn't always work.

 

A/G SAR mapping has its uses, in the real world it has kinda gone out of favor for a lot of reasons that Lex and G B have spoken about. one of the biggest ones is return on investment of training, If its modelled correctly (as RBM modes seem to be) in DCS with actual limitations, its not going to make your use any easier, and you'll start to understand why only specialist platforms (F-15E is honestly the only fighter I know of in the US military) really continue to use it as a primary tool in their mission set.

 

There are tons of other easier/bigger bang for buck tools that you can use when you have a limited amount of training/time that will give you better results. The specific few instances where the A/G radar is the best option, its better to bring in the specialist community, rather than flex the community that never uses it and has no TTP's for using it on a day to day basis.