Differing high G behaviour in BFM, Hornet & Viper

[markturner1960]

I always liked the dogfight mode in Falcon 4 and have been trying out the Viper and Hornet now I am getting used to flying the sim again.

 

In the Viper, you can over G and red out easily and its tough to maneuver the jet and keep it's energy, however, in the Hornet, I never seem to be able to get the red out and it seems way easier to maneuver the jet under high load, why is this? Surely G load black out etc is modelled the same for both?

[Robin_Hood]

Check your load factor. The fact that the Hornet FCS limits you to about 7 Gs has something to do with it ;)

[Top Jockey]

I always liked the dogfight mode in Falcon 4 and have been trying out the Viper and Hornet now I am getting used to flying the sim again.

 

In the Viper, you can over G and red out easily and its tough to maneuver the jet and keep it's energy, however, in the Hornet, I never seem to be able to get the red out and it seems way easier to maneuver the jet under high load, why is this? Surely G load black out etc is modelled the same for both?

 

Hello,

 

In real life, the Viper and the Hornet do have different flight models.

(And this is also implemented in the sim.)

 

I believe it seems easier to maneuver the Hornet, because it does not have an AoA as limited as the Viper (which I believe is limited to 26 degrees).

 

Also this capability allows the Hornet to have better nose pointing authority, which means in a specific moment the aircraft might be changing its nose position, although that alone doesn't mean that it's pulling much G's... even at low speeds.

[MacEwan]

And on the flipside, if you unload in the viper, you'll regain speed much faster than in the hornet.

 

*Experts please correct me if I'm wrong.

[panton41]

Yeah, the slow-speed, high alpha performance of the Hornet is legendary. You can be in a pretty nasty stall, falling out of the sky and still able to point your nose. It has to do with the large leading-edge extensions and the canted vertical stabilizers.

 

The Viper can turn on a dime, but bleeds off energy fast when you do it and can recover that energy just as quickly once you stop hard maneuvering.

 

I read an account - I forget where - about how at the Top Gun school if you were flying a Hornet and couldn't best a Tomcat in 60 seconds you weren't really trying. (Probably one of the many memoires about naval aviation I've read recently.)

[BuzzU]

I'd like to hear from a real Viper pilot about the DCS Viper's FM and blackout.

 

Between the other Viper sim and DCS. One of them is wrong because they're far apart.

[kengou]

I'd like to hear from a real Viper pilot about the DCS Viper's FM and blackout.

 

Between the other Viper sim and DCS. One of them is wrong because they're far apart.

 

Viper pilots have commented many times now that it’s way too easy to Black out in the DCS Viper. I hope this will be updated eventually. It should be possible to sustain 9 g for more than 5 seconds before passing out :doh:

[BuzzU]

What do they say about the FM?

[Stubbies2003]

Viper pilots have commented many times now that it’s way too easy to Black out in the DCS Viper. I hope this will be updated eventually. It should be possible to sustain 9 g for more than 5 seconds before passing out :doh:

 

 

Total agreement there. WAY too easy to black out in DCS. I got three incentive flights in the 16 and we hit 9g on the first two rides (third one the aircraft broke before we got to that point) and even being the newbie maintainer in the back seat I never even lost color vision. As long as you do the proper g strain maneuver most people would be fine.

 

Now breathing on the other hand was another issue all together at 9g. Apparently you needed to go through some kind of training to use the positive pressure breathing gear and they weren't going to bother with that for incentive flights so we didn't have that going for us.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Viper pilots have commented many times now that it’s way too easy to Black out in the DCS Viper. I hope this will be updated eventually. It should be possible to sustain 9 g for more than 5 seconds before passing out :doh:

 

Do a couple of 90° turns at 6 G's before hard maneuvering. That will keep the pilot awake a bit longer.

[sk000tch]

Viper pilots have commented many times now that it’s way too easy to Black out in the DCS Viper. I hope this will be updated eventually. It should be possible to sustain 9 g for more than 5 seconds before passing out :doh:

 

Most guys agree that g-loc in DCS is unrealistic, but for a number of reasons beyond max tolerance. The consistency and low peak G of onset is just one aspect. I remember that main thread well and I don't remember anyone singling out the viper as specifically unrealistic. The Viper just makes reaching DCS' limits easier. Pilots on these forums have lost friends in the 16 though, and virtually everybody knows someone. The viper had a tendency to bite, often unexpectedly, often guys with low time in type, and for more reasons than just the 9g peak. Its better now, they can identify students physiologically predisposed to g-loc during f-16 b course, and with improved g-suit, and of course auto-gcas, the occurrence pmfh is now comparable to other fighters.

 

That said, beyond some simple G warm up logic, DCS doesn't seem to have much nuance or complexity to the current model. There are some big question marks ED needs to decide when redesigning the effect. How to account for variances between aircraft, or the training requirements (i.e. centrifuge profiles) the pilots must pass. Whether to include fatigue or randomness, both of which are big factors.

 

Which, btw, is why auto-gcas is as cool as it is. This vid is a good example of both points, note peak G barely above 8 with relatively slow onset. Conversely, G-LOC onset was very fast, unusually fast actually:

 

Total agreement there. WAY too easy to black out in DCS. I got three incentive flights in the 16 and we hit 9g on the first two rides (third one the aircraft broke before we got to that point) and even being the newbie maintainer in the back seat I never even lost color vision. As long as you do the proper g strain maneuver most people would be fine.

 

Very cool about the incentive flights, sounds like you enjoyed them. It is much different as a passenger, where your sole task is to grunt and bear it. Managing pilot workload, particularly if looking over your shoulder, and the responsibility of aircraft and passengers, changes the equation. Even then, the only time I have completely blacked out was not dissimilar from the video, very low G, sudden onset. I have been over it a thousand times, the negative G preceding positive maneuver, the drinks the night before and lack of breakfast, all things I'd done a thousand times none of which resulted in me waking up knife edge 60 degrees nose down. Yet it still happened.

 

Anyway, ED has info with lots of centrifuge and flight analysis containing mathematical predictions of probability of G-LOC onset at various loads and times, and a whole bunch of anecdotal pilots opinions with suggestions on how to make the system more realistic. Some of which is game friendly, others perhaps not so much. Good example is unexpected sudden onset described above. It is a big RL hazard, but like mechanical failure, probably not something most would enjoy in game. But what about normalizing different aircraft? Or accounting for fatigue, jerk, not allowing continued use of controls or repeated or continuous pushing grey out limit? All would make the overall effect more realistic, but perhaps not all belong in a game?

 

It will be interesting to see what they do. Most everyone agrees the current effect comes on a bit soon, and with the viper now in the hangar, that's much more of a problem. We have been spoiled by the gentile Hornet, as the Typhoon will be even worse. Wags did say they were working on it, though when or what that means i have no idea. Will be interesting to see what they come up with.