reported AN/APG-63 range is under-represented

[GGTharos]

@BIGNEWY are there any news on this?  This requires the change of a single value in a single file (I know because I've done it), so ... did it get forgotten or is something else going on?   I hate to grate on this but the radar performance is a huge part of what makes an eagle, well...an eagle.  The information provided was solid, combining both actual test documentation from the oldest versions of the radar which gives solid numbers against specific RCS  as well as the F-14 performance documents which give solid numbers (and those radars use similar technology and power input, so they won't be far apart in range performance).

[BIGNEWY]

2 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

@BIGNEWY are there any news on this?  This requires the change of a single value in a single file (I know because I've done it), so ... did it get forgotten or is something else going on?   I hate to grate on this but the radar performance is a huge part of what makes an eagle, well...an eagle.  The information provided was solid, combining both actual test documentation from the oldest versions of the radar which gives solid numbers against specific RCS  as well as the F-14 performance documents which give solid numbers (and those radars use similar technology and power input, so they won't be far apart in range performance).

 

No news to share, the report is still open and I have asked for an update. I can not give any timeline at the moment. 

[okopanja]

15 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

This requires the change of a single value in a single file

If you do not mind: which file, which setting?

[GGTharos]

I don't even remember any more, I stopped doing it when ED hit the file instead of just having IC violations if you change it 

Edited December 7, 2021 by GGTharos

[Mike_Romeo]

5 hours ago, GGTharos said:

@BIGNEWY are there any news on this?  This requires the change of a single value in a single file (I know because I've done it), so ... did it get forgotten or is something else going on?   I hate to grate on this but the radar performance is a huge part of what makes an eagle, well...an eagle.  The information provided was solid, combining both actual test documentation from the oldest versions of the radar which gives solid numbers against specific RCS  as well as the F-14 performance documents which give solid numbers (and those radars use similar technology and power input, so they won't be far apart in range performance).

Soooooooooooon as always... Just be patience

[henshao]

48 minutes ago, Mike_Romeo said:

patience

 

eagle has had identical radar performance to flanker since this time

[_Hoss]

On 6/24/2020 at 2:43 PM, Curly said:

 APG-63 dish size is 36 inches in diameter and has peak power is 12K watts.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah.......Are you sure that's correct? Doing an FTP (Functional Test Program) on a AN/APG-65 and APG-73 RADAR I never measured 12,000 watts coming out of the Transmitter into the dummy loads, (the power of the transmitted pulse going to the antenna) the USN measures power in dbm.  When you convert the dbm over to watts, it was definitely not 12kwatts.  I don't know where you guys get this information from.  The AN/APG-63 would never be able to handle that much power, you would have to have on hell of a step up coil between the transmitter and antenna.  And those kinds of statistics on a Military RADAR weapons system are classified.  Electronic Counter Measures would never be able to burn through the power of a 12,000 watt RADAR. And the cockpit would have to be sheilded, like the Prowler's was. Even though the antenna is pointed forward there would be side lobes more powerful than the actual transmitted pulse of a real APG-63. 

[GGTharos]

Why would you measure 12KW out of either of those radars when they're at lower power?

[Curly]

On 12/7/2021 at 7:18 PM, 352nd_Hoss said:

Yeah.......Are you sure that's correct?.  I don't know where you guys get this information from.  

  per the report cited in the OP. 

The peak power figures come from this Public Canadian radar assessment. 

https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk2/ftp04/mq22118.pdf

[Spurts]

90km is 49nm, vs an F-4.  Seems much lower than other documentation.  Older version of the -63?

[GGTharos]

Not at all, he's obviously writing in km for nm - the old version tested at 85nm or more vs a 6m^2 target, the Phantom is 15-20.  If you check that particular study, he doesn't cite any classified sources.

[SgtPappy]

On 12/10/2021 at 6:33 PM, GGTharos said:

Not at all, he's obviously writing in km for nm - the old version tested at 85nm or more vs a 6m^2 target, the Phantom is 15-20.  If you check that particular study, he doesn't cite any classified sources.

Sorry, we Canadians often mix up units (Freedom Units aren't really our forté but somehow, we're stuck with them in the aviation industry )

[henshao]

well, haven't stirred the pot in a while

 

 

 

[Harlikwin]

19 hours ago, henshao said:

well, haven't stirred the pot in a while

 

 

 

Yeah its kinda cringy really. Missing any really useful details. I.e. look down, which mode, etc.

 

[_Hoss]

Instrumented Range:   https://www.radartutorial.eu/01.basics/rb69.en.html

The instrumented range is the maximum range of a radar in which echo signals can be displayed. It is not a measure of the actual range of the radar or its probability of detection. In most cases, the instrumented range is equal to the largest possible scale that can be set on the displays.

An instrumented range is determined by construction based on three conditions:

• The actual maximum range of a radar depends once on the energetic limitation of the detection range and is subject to very many influences considered in the radar equation. An instrumented range should be larger than this energetic range so that all existing echo signals can be displayed.
• On the other hand, the temporal conditions must also fit,
  • so that no ambiguities occur which could lead to misinterpretations. Echo signals received outside the pulse period would result in overreaches that are displayed as interference at an incorrect range.
  • However, the instrumented range should also be less than or at most equal to the distance corresponding to the receiving time, because otherwise a second transmit pulse would be seen as a full circle on the displays.

The instrumented range should therefore be technically dimensioned somewhat larger than these conditions specify. In addition, other conditions may also act.

 

Maximum Unambiguous Range:      https://www.radartutorial.eu/01.basics/Maximum Unambiguous Range.en.html

The maximum unambiguous range (R_max) is the longest range to which a transmitted pulse can travel out to and back again between consecutive transmitted pulses. In other words, R_max is the maximum distance radar energy can travel round trip between pulses and still produce reliable information.

The relationship between the PRF or their reciprocal value inter pulse period T (PRT) and R_max determines the unambiguous range of the radar. Suppose the radar emits a pulse that strikes a target and returns to the radar in round trip time t:

• If t < T then the return signal arrives before the next pulse has been emitted.
• If t = T then the return signal arrives exactly when the next pulse has been emitted.
• If t > T then the return signal arrives after the next pulse has been emitted and there is an ambiguity, ie the radar cannot tell whether the return signal has come from the first or second pulse.

The greater the pulse repetition frequency f_p (in pulses per second), the shorter the pulse repetition time T (inter pulse period) and the shorter the maximum unambiguous range R_max of the radar. R_max must be larger than the Maximum Display Range (so-called: instrumented range).

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by 352nd_Hoss

[Harlikwin]

On 1/1/2022 at 5:00 PM, 352nd_Hoss said:

Instrumented Range:   https://www.radartutorial.eu/01.basics/rb69.en.html

The instrumented range is the maximum range of a radar in which echo signals can be displayed. It is not a measure of the actual range of the radar or its probability of detection. In most cases, the instrumented range is equal to the largest possible scale that can be set on the displays.

An instrumented range is determined by construction based on three conditions:

• The actual maximum range of a radar depends once on the energetic limitation of the detection range and is subject to very many influences considered in the radar equation. An instrumented range should be larger than this energetic range so that all existing echo signals can be displayed.
• On the other hand, the temporal conditions must also fit,
  • so that no ambiguities occur which could lead to misinterpretations. Echo signals received outside the pulse period would result in overreaches that are displayed as interference at an incorrect range.
  • However, the instrumented range should also be less than or at most equal to the distance corresponding to the receiving time, because otherwise a second transmit pulse would be seen as a full circle on the displays.

The instrumented range should therefore be technically dimensioned somewhat larger than these conditions specify. In addition, other conditions may also act.

 

Maximum Unambiguous Range:      https://www.radartutorial.eu/01.basics/Maximum Unambiguous Range.en.html

The maximum unambiguous range (R_max) is the longest range to which a transmitted pulse can travel out to and back again between consecutive transmitted pulses. In other words, R_max is the maximum distance radar energy can travel round trip between pulses and still produce reliable information.

The relationship between the PRF or their reciprocal value inter pulse period T (PRT) and R_max determines the unambiguous range of the radar. Suppose the radar emits a pulse that strikes a target and returns to the radar in round trip time t:

• If t < T then the return signal arrives before the next pulse has been emitted.
• If t = T then the return signal arrives exactly when the next pulse has been emitted.
• If t > T then the return signal arrives after the next pulse has been emitted and there is an ambiguity, ie the radar cannot tell whether the return signal has come from the first or second pulse.

The greater the pulse repetition frequency f_p (in pulses per second), the shorter the pulse repetition time T (inter pulse period) and the shorter the maximum unambiguous range R_max of the radar. R_max must be larger than the Maximum Display Range (so-called: instrumented range).

 

 

 

 

Cool, can you tell us which specific range that cringy graph used? 

 

[_Hoss]

The link to the webpage is in the post.  Look in the service section.

 

[Harlikwin]

11 hours ago, 352nd_Hoss said:

The link to the webpage is in the post.  Look in the service section.

 

I was referring to the info graphic which is clearly not using those sorts of numbers, and if it is we have no idea which ones. 

[F-2]

Their is a 500 page document on the PSP processor from the C/D I could send if no one has it.

[henshao]

this is all a psy-op, right? they never planned to fix this?

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

ED recently showed some love for the Eagle and added the much needed wing stress. I'm sure it was harder than changing a single value for the radar please fix it

[Thunder Chicken22]

On 5/1/2022 at 1:24 AM, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

ED recently showed some love for the Eagle and added the much needed wing stress. I'm sure it was harder than changing a single value for the radar please fix it

Nah it’s a single value on the systems lua. On the Grinnelli F-22 mod, which uses the Eagle’s avionics, I changed it to 600km to simulate AESA like ranges. My guess is that it just got lost on the priority list.