Marshall stack bank angle / speed / cues help

[Creepy]

One of my favorites was the guys who would turn inbound and see their distance to go to the fix with 1 minute left and then set that in mach number. So with 1 minute left they had 6.7 miles to go, they’d set mach .67. They swear it worked but I never adopted it.

 

Wut... I’ve never heard that one before. Always love seeing the dude below you late and in full burner trying to make their time though.

[markturner1960]

The numbers with the colon are times. Minutes past the hour specifically. The numbers in the middle are the TACAN DME. So 300 knots ground speed = 5 NM per minute.

 

OK< thanks, I understand. So you are not flying a circle in the stack essentially , more a rounded off rectangle

[G B]

Wut... I’ve never heard that one before. Always love seeing the dude below you late and in full burner trying to make their time though.

 

Yeah. One of my old skippers swore by that and encouraged its use. Got a firm “nope” from me.

[G B]

OK< thanks, I understand. So you are not flying a circle in the stack essentially , more a rounded off rectangle

 

Yes this particular technique uses a racetrack.

 

But remember, it is technique. You can do figure 8s out there and nobody would care (and it would be legal), so long as your stayed on your altitude.

[G B]

You can probably do that if you were alone or last in the stack. But if you were not, what will aircrafts, that were behind you in the stack and have in 1 minute intervalls behind you already committed, and coming down in a string, precisely flying the numbers do, while you are mothing around?

 

CATCC will sequence you in. They’ve been doing this for decades and have tons of procedures, experience, and corporate knowledge on this.

 

This is one of the big reasons the marshal radial is offset from the final bearing. The dogleg allows controllers to use geometry to build or reduce spacing. CATCC also can tell an aircraft to “take speed 225” or to “dirty up” sooner than 8 miles, or provide vectors, or a number of things.

 

There’s much more to a Case 3 recovery than simply the approach procedure. There’s all kinds of scenarios to account for. Bolter/Waveoff, an emergency inbound being dropped off by a wingman on the ball, somebody being sent to the tanker, etc. You gotta have more procedures than just the approach, and those procedures exist.

Edited May 17, 2020 by G B

[canned_fire]

Thanks GB for the real life tips. If a may ask a question:

 

Regarding the Case 1 initial 3 nm and 800 ft, any real life tips for that? How many degrees turn right after point 3? When to turn left? Dme to turn left? 350kt right at point 3? How to keep spacing to the flight ahead if they use a different speed than 350?

 

Thanks!

[G B]

Thanks GB for the real life tips. If a may ask a question:

 

Regarding the Case 1 initial 3 nm and 800 ft, any real life tips for that? How many degrees turn right after point 3? When to turn left? Dme to turn left? 350kt right at point 3? How to keep spacing to the flight ahead if they use a different speed than 350?

 

Thanks!

 

There is no well defined numbers or techniques. It is “make it happen.” Remember that line from top gun: “do some of that pilot $h!t”? That’s it.

 

Play out the turn, play out the pull, play out the speed, play out the distance you break at. *Make it happen.*

[Raisuli]

Yes this particular technique uses a racetrack.

 

But remember, it is technique. You can do figure 8s out there and nobody would care (and it would be legal), so long as your stayed on your altitude.

 

 

So...despite all the chatter about a five mile circle with the 3 o'clock at the carrier (which is moving, so a constant bank angle wouldn't work anyway because your anchor point is constantly shifting), the real answer is stay on altitude and be ready to drop out and make your approach when told?

 

 

That makes me feel much better, because I'm looking at the neat diagrams and thinking physics hates that idea. Add weather, turbulence, and all those other messy things that really ruin two dimensional drawings...

 

 

It also makes all the thinking I've been doing about how to maintain a five mile Spirograph circle unnecessary. I hadn't solved it anyway.

[G B]

So...despite all the chatter about a five mile circle with the 3 o'clock at the carrier (which is moving, so a constant bank angle wouldn't work anyway because your anchor point is constantly shifting), the real answer is stay on altitude and be ready to drop out and make your approach when told?

 

 

That makes me feel much better, because I'm looking at the neat diagrams and thinking physics hates that idea. Add weather, turbulence, and all those other messy things that really ruin two dimensional drawings...

 

 

It also makes all the thinking I've been doing about how to maintain a five mile Spirograph circle unnecessary. I hadn't solved it anyway.

 

What you quoted from me, was me describing holding in Case 3, NOT Case 1.

 

It sounds like now you’re talking about Case 1, which does have the 5 mile diameter and the ship at “3 o’clock”

[Raisuli]

What you quoted from me, was me describing holding in Case 3, NOT Case 1.

 

It sounds like now you’re talking about Case 1, which does have the 5 mile diameter and the ship at “3 o’clock”

 

 

Well, BOO! Back to my Spirograph!

 

 

Then again, in SP nobody cares how you stack above the carrier. That's MY carrier, darn it, and if I want lobster for midrats...

 

 

Except I'm a little OCD and won't be satisfied with myself until I can do it right. Mostly. At some point Case III will be required since I almost prefer to fly at night.

[Pike]

They give you the parameters of each checkpoint, the "tips" to accompliah that are to go out and practice basic flight maneuvers.

 

 

Go start by making 30 and 45 degree bank angle turns and rolling out on the heading you chose. Make 360 degree turns and maintain within +/- 100 ft and 10 knots, with the goal to finish at the same alt and speed you started on. Obviously you want to keep it tighter, but you have to start somewhere and thats the general check ride parameter.

 

 

Aircraft weight, loadout drag, wind speed and direction, will all change how the craft performs.

[markturner1960]

Thanks GB, did not realize you have real life experience, so apologies again for the very basic queries.....and thanks so much for your time helping out us wannabe virtual pilots!

[=4c=Nikola]

I draw this. It's based off of intercepting this profile and maintaining 300 knots groundspeed. It's the most common technique I've seen used but is by no means the only one.

 

Just to report this works extremely well. Of course, it's 23kt above target speed, but I believe I can manage that by flying a little bit faster first minute of inbound leg and then with 250kias second minute of inbound leg.

 

Btw, it works even better when you check time vs distance every half minute and correct.

 

Click on image for full resolution.

Edited May 20, 2020 by =4c=Nikola

[victorlima01]

Another way to go about this is flying 4 min circles at 300 GS instead of racetracks. This is just geometry though. Also, I know a pilot who establishes a "pseudo-fix" 10 nm behind her assigned marshall DME . I think that's what Jell'o describes doing back in his day. That way they'd have 2 min (10nm at 300 kts GS) to go in a straight line after completing a circle to arrive at the marshall at the EAT. I think the rationale is that this straight leg would work as a buffer where you can adjust your GS while flying straight towards the marshall to arrive on time.

 

Edit: I found GB's method to work best for me though back when he taught it at Lex's discord.

[G B]

Just to report this works extremely well. Of course, it's 23kt above target speed, but I believe I can manage that by flying a little bit faster first minute of inbound leg and then with 250kias second minute of inbound leg.

 

Btw, it works even better when you check time vs distance every half minute and correct.

 

Click on image for full resolution.

 

 

Glad that it's working for you!

[Sandman1330]

Regarding Case I Marshall stack altitudes, how are they assigned?

 

The SC manual seems to state they are assigned by squadron. Does this mean it is all assigned and briefed during preflight?

 

If this is the case I wonder how best to go about this on multiplayer servers that are not focussed on one mission but run continuously / for training...

[G B]

Regarding Case I Marshall stack altitudes, how are they assigned?

 

The SC manual seems to state they are assigned by squadron. Does this mean it is all assigned and briefed during preflight?

 

If this is the case I wonder how best to go about this on multiplayer servers that are not focussed on one mission but run continuously / for training...

 

 

During CQ the altitudes are assigned by the Air Boss.

 

 

Otherwise, each squadron has an altitude that is theirs during the entire time they are underway.

[majapahit]

I think topic starter (and some subsequent answers) are mixing up overhead stack and marshall stack, i.g.

" .. a nice circular marshall stack cruise .. " which starts the confusion, and he means the overhead stack I think to read.

 

overhead stack = Case 1 around the boat <5nm, depicted circular / 250kts or rather the 'fuel endurance' speed per the type and conditions, one accelerates out of this stack

 

marshall stack = Case 3 = (15nm + 1nm per 1000s of the stacks) minimum 21nm DME incoming to the ship, depicted as race track (as civil flight)

 

& it being pretty hard to get to the exit fix on the exact assigned time.

 

To fly a night mission you need be able to do this Case 3 hold and the straight in, Case 1 is the daytime good viz procedure with the break.

Edited May 21, 2020 by majapahit

[Sandman1330]

During CQ the altitudes are assigned by the Air Boss.

 

 

Otherwise, each squadron has an altitude that is theirs during the entire time they are underway.

 

Thanks G B! So one squadron always seems to get shafted with last recovery (higher altitude)? I wonder how we can make this work in DCS servers. If the AI airboss could treat it as CQ and assign altitudes it would help.

 

I think topic starter (and some subsequent answers) are mixing up overhead stack and marshall stack, i.g.

" .. a nice circular marshall stack cruise .. " which starts the confusion, and he means the overhead stack I think to read.

 

overhead stack = Case 1 around the boat <5nm, depicted circular / 250kts or rather the 'fuel endurance' speed per the type and conditions, one accelerates out of this stack

 

marshall stack = Case 3 = (15nm + 1nm per 1000s of the stacks) minimum 21nm DME incoming to the ship, depicted as race track (as civil flight)

 

& it being pretty hard to get to the exit fix on the exact assigned time.

 

To fly a night mission you need be able to do this Case 3 hold and the straight in, Case 1 is the daytime good viz procedure with the break.

 

Guilty, thanks for the correction!

[markturner1960]

I think topic starter (and some subsequent answers) are mixing up overhead stack and marshall stack, i.g.

" .. a nice circular marshall stack cruise .. " which starts the confusion, and he means the overhead stack I think to read.

 

overhead stack = Case 1 around the boat <5nm, depicted circular / 250kts or rather the 'fuel endurance' speed per the type and conditions, one accelerates out of this stack

 

marshall stack = Case 3 = (15nm + 1nm per 1000s of the stacks) minimum 21nm DME incoming to the ship, depicted as race track (as civil flight)

 

& it being pretty hard to get to the exit fix on the exact assigned time.

 

To fly a night mission you need be able to do this Case 3 hold and the straight in, Case 1 is the daytime good viz procedure with the break.

 

Apologies, yes, I was talking about the overhead stack. I will work 0n that before frying my brain on the Marshall stack........