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Bug - F-14 and Mig-31 R-33 Missile


nukemgood

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Hello,

 

 

The F-14 does not always (about 70% of the time) get a missile launch radar tone from the AI Mig-31 when it launches an R-33. The tone we get from the RWR is only the Spike/Lock on tone. This only seems to apply to the R-33 missile.

 

 

 

This leads to many deaths with Tomcat pilots and has lead to the now-common adage that "if a Mig-31 is locking you, just assume an R-33 is on its way".

 

 

 

I have a track file from Persian Gulf at war, it's 123 Mb uncompressed, however and includes a significant amount of flight time in an F-16C.

 

 

Let me know if you want it. I also have a Tacview from the same time.

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True, I think this is a known issue. However, the Mig-31 having a PESA radar shouldn't even spike certain older RWR's and guide the missile in a TWS-like mode. The R-33 is technically a Fox-1. While in DCS that might not be intended, in reality this very scenario is very likely. For example, during the Iran - Iraw war the Iranian Tomcats found out that the RWR of the enemy Mig-23's and 21's did not respond to the TWS mode at all.

 

You don't really need a launch or spike warning if you know he's there and have him on radar. You need to build good SA and be aware of possible launches.

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True, I think this is a known issue. However, the Mig-31 having a PESA radar shouldn't even spike certain older RWR's and guide the missile in a TWS-like mode. The R-33 is technically a Fox-1. While in DCS that might not be intended, in reality this very scenario is very likely. For example, during the Iran - Iraw war the Iranian Tomcats found out that the RWR of the enemy Mig-23's and 21's did not respond to the TWS mode at all.

 

You don't really need a launch or spike warning if you know he's there and have him on radar. You need to build good SA and be aware of possible launches.

It should spike the RWR. The 31 doesn't launch in TWS, it spikes multiple targets, since it can electronically steer a beam on multiple targets. This is not the same as a Tomcat, or Eagle launching in TWS.

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Hello,

 

 

The F-14 does not always (about 70% of the time) get a missile launch radar tone from the AI Mig-31 when it launches an R-33. The tone we get from the RWR is only the Spike/Lock on tone. This only seems to apply to the R-33 missile.

 

 

 

This leads to many deaths with Tomcat pilots and has lead to the now-common adage that "if a Mig-31 is locking you, just assume an R-33 is on its way".

 

 

 

I have a track file from Persian Gulf at war, it's 123 Mb uncompressed, however and includes a significant amount of flight time in an F-16C.

 

 

Let me know if you want it. I also have a Tacview from the same time.

 

 

Reported here.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=262576

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It should spike the RWR. The 31 doesn't launch in TWS, it spikes multiple targets, since it can electronically steer a beam on multiple targets. This is not the same as a Tomcat, or Eagle launching in TWS.

 

The AA-9/ R-33 would start a long range shot on inertial mode, because the SARH seeker wouldn’t be able to acquire lock on long range.

So I wouldn’t be so sure that the firing is already done in STT. The STT may be performed at a later stage of missile flight time.

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It should spike the RWR. The 31 doesn't launch in TWS, it spikes multiple targets, since it can electronically steer a beam on multiple targets. This is not the same as a Tomcat, or Eagle launching in TWS.

 

Again STT isn't STT, esp. with a PESA. Older RWR's may not sense any change in PRF or frequency and thus never get a lock or launch warning. Unless you fly the 31 in real life, how would you know for a fact which mode it guides the missile in and how the scan algorithm works? This is going well into a rabit hole discussing radar theory and how RWR's work but it's not as simple as it seems, like, not at all.

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Unless you fly the 31 in real life

 

 

The same to you. The current information available is the R-33 is SARH and requires CW to home onto the target. That should trip the RWR.

 

 

So unless you have better information for how the missile is guided, then this should be considered a bug. If it isn't a bug, then the rest of DCS's modules need it fixed.

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The same to you. The current information available is the R-33 is SARH and requires CW to home onto the target. That should trip the RWR.

 

 

So unless you have better information for how the missile is guided, then this should be considered a bug. If it isn't a bug, then the rest of DCS's modules need it fixed.

 

Source that it uses CW?

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Source that it uses CW?

 

Yeah, I'd like to see that as well as IIRC it uses monopulse radar illumination like on other Soviet aircraft of the time, with a twist that being PESA allows it to illuminate multiple targets in parallel.

 

I do recall the missile used an older-tech conical-scan seeker for some reason, though.


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