nukemgood Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 Hello, The F-14 does not always (about 70% of the time) get a missile launch radar tone from the AI Mig-31 when it launches an R-33. The tone we get from the RWR is only the Spike/Lock on tone. This only seems to apply to the R-33 missile. This leads to many deaths with Tomcat pilots and has lead to the now-common adage that "if a Mig-31 is locking you, just assume an R-33 is on its way". I have a track file from Persian Gulf at war, it's 123 Mb uncompressed, however and includes a significant amount of flight time in an F-16C. Let me know if you want it. I also have a Tacview from the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airhunter Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 True, I think this is a known issue. However, the Mig-31 having a PESA radar shouldn't even spike certain older RWR's and guide the missile in a TWS-like mode. The R-33 is technically a Fox-1. While in DCS that might not be intended, in reality this very scenario is very likely. For example, during the Iran - Iraw war the Iranian Tomcats found out that the RWR of the enemy Mig-23's and 21's did not respond to the TWS mode at all. You don't really need a launch or spike warning if you know he's there and have him on radar. You need to build good SA and be aware of possible launches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umkhunto Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 True, I think this is a known issue. However, the Mig-31 having a PESA radar shouldn't even spike certain older RWR's and guide the missile in a TWS-like mode. The R-33 is technically a Fox-1. While in DCS that might not be intended, in reality this very scenario is very likely. For example, during the Iran - Iraw war the Iranian Tomcats found out that the RWR of the enemy Mig-23's and 21's did not respond to the TWS mode at all. You don't really need a launch or spike warning if you know he's there and have him on radar. You need to build good SA and be aware of possible launches. It should spike the RWR. The 31 doesn't launch in TWS, it spikes multiple targets, since it can electronically steer a beam on multiple targets. This is not the same as a Tomcat, or Eagle launching in TWS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umkhunto Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 Hello, The F-14 does not always (about 70% of the time) get a missile launch radar tone from the AI Mig-31 when it launches an R-33. The tone we get from the RWR is only the Spike/Lock on tone. This only seems to apply to the R-33 missile. This leads to many deaths with Tomcat pilots and has lead to the now-common adage that "if a Mig-31 is locking you, just assume an R-33 is on its way". I have a track file from Persian Gulf at war, it's 123 Mb uncompressed, however and includes a significant amount of flight time in an F-16C. Let me know if you want it. I also have a Tacview from the same time. Reported here. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=262576 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojo Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 It should spike the RWR. The 31 doesn't launch in TWS, it spikes multiple targets, since it can electronically steer a beam on multiple targets. This is not the same as a Tomcat, or Eagle launching in TWS. The AA-9/ R-33 would start a long range shot on inertial mode, because the SARH seeker wouldn’t be able to acquire lock on long range. So I wouldn’t be so sure that the firing is already done in STT. The STT may be performed at a later stage of missile flight time. Mirage fanatic ! I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airhunter Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 It should spike the RWR. The 31 doesn't launch in TWS, it spikes multiple targets, since it can electronically steer a beam on multiple targets. This is not the same as a Tomcat, or Eagle launching in TWS. Again STT isn't STT, esp. with a PESA. Older RWR's may not sense any change in PRF or frequency and thus never get a lock or launch warning. Unless you fly the 31 in real life, how would you know for a fact which mode it guides the missile in and how the scan algorithm works? This is going well into a rabit hole discussing radar theory and how RWR's work but it's not as simple as it seems, like, not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umkhunto Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 Unless you fly the 31 in real life The same to you. The current information available is the R-33 is SARH and requires CW to home onto the target. That should trip the RWR. So unless you have better information for how the missile is guided, then this should be considered a bug. If it isn't a bug, then the rest of DCS's modules need it fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airhunter Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 The same to you. The current information available is the R-33 is SARH and requires CW to home onto the target. That should trip the RWR. So unless you have better information for how the missile is guided, then this should be considered a bug. If it isn't a bug, then the rest of DCS's modules need it fixed. Source that it uses CW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudikoff Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 (edited) Source that it uses CW? Yeah, I'd like to see that as well as IIRC it uses monopulse radar illumination like on other Soviet aircraft of the time, with a twist that being PESA allows it to illuminate multiple targets in parallel. I do recall the missile used an older-tech conical-scan seeker for some reason, though. Edited May 21, 2020 by Dudikoff i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SB 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1btn 2axis, Numpad as hat. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH avg. DISCLAIMER: My posts are still absolutely useless. Just finding excuses not to learn the F-14 (HB's Swansong?). Annoyed by my posts? Please consider donating. Once the target sum is reached, I'll be off to somewhere nice I promise not to post from. I'd buy that for a dollar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLTeo Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 Meh, there's no way DCS simulates a PESA properly especially for a really old AI asset. Until that's implemented properly, STT locks should be treated consistently for all AI aircraft imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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