SA342 vs Tanks - How?!?

[ironk79]

quite new to DCS, enjoying helicopters so far. Hve been trying to use the Gazelle in Anti tank missions (SP) with its HOT armament.

 

But no matter how good i try to hide behind trees, f**king AI T72 pick me up from miles away, no chance of creating an ambush or anything, cant see them, still i get their shells while hovering BEHIND trees, tried numerous ways - what is this, i mean, come on!?

Is there a way to get AI to a more, lets say realistic and "human" level??? If not the gazelle is pretty much useless in this role - and i could have saved my money.

[G.J.S]

Haven’t tried this module yet, but what about putting a building or hill between you and your victim? Trees, although semi-good visual coverage, are hardly good physical coverage.

Also, your route up to your fire point, is that away from view?

All things to consider.

British Army helicopter hunter killer teams typically creep up to the fire point, or take several views of the target if its moving, and select a suitable fire point further along and take a wide track to get there and set up.

[ironk79]

Haven’t tried this module yet, but what about putting a building or hill between you and your victim? Trees, although semi-good visual coverage, are hardly good physical coverage.

Also, your route up to your fire point, is that away from view?

All things to consider.

British Army helicopter hunter killer teams typically creep up to the fire point, or take several views of the target if its moving, and select a suitable fire point further along and take a wide track to get there and set up.

 

 

I dont want the trees to be a physical cover, but a visual. Tried little ME mission were i take off behind a tree line a wait behind the trees until Tanks move into a little opening between trees /branches. But sill they could see me even beofe the is a line of sight at the said "opening". AI seems hyper aware and seems to have xray vision. dont know how to approach and if there even is a "chance" for said approach.

[razo+r]

No, the AI is as it is.

 

Buildings don't provide any cover from AI seeing you (unless that changed recently) and trees only block missiles and rockets, but not any shell or rounds.

 

The only good and reliable cover in DCS is the ground.

[ironk79]

No, the AI is as it is.

 

Buildings don't provide any cover from AI seeing you (unless that changed recently) and trees only block missiles and rockets, but not any shell or rounds.

 

The only good and reliable cover in DCS is the ground.

 

 

Then it should not be called "AI" , what a shame for a SIM of this level.

So only thing to do with anti tank missiles is to hunt GAZ trucks and oil barrels, sounds enticing.

[Volator]

No, the AI is as it is.

 

Buildings don't provide any cover from AI seeing you (unless that changed recently) and trees only block missiles and rockets, but not any shell or rounds.

 

The only good and reliable cover in DCS is the ground.

 

My tests have shown buildings block LOS and radar from AD like ZSU-23-4, but EWR and AWACS can still detect you behind buildings. Just one of several weird anomalies in DCS.

 

With trees I'm not certain. Many claim trees now block LOS as well, but I had Shilkas kill me through trees at times, at others not. It's a little inconsistent for me.

 

For the ground as cover, there seems to be a little margin at the top edge of hills or mountains where EWR and tracking radar can detect you even when you are still slightly below the edge.

 

AWACS can basically detect you everywhere.

 

All in all you are right, in DCS the only reliable cover is terrain.

[Volator]

Then it should not be called "AI" , what a shame for a SIM of this level.

So only thing to do with anti tank missiles is to hunt GAZ trucks and oil barrels, sounds enticing.

 

Yeah, it's really tough and can be very frustrating at times.

 

Some engagements I had made me theorize that detection could be affected by aspect. I had T-72 not reacting at all at less than 3000m when approached them from behind, and I got regularly sniped by T-72 (that I never saw in the weeds) when I seemed to be in their front quarter.

 

Engagement ranges of the tanks could also be affected by AI skill level set in the mission editor, but that's just an educated guess.

[ironk79]

Yeah, it's really tough and can be very frustrating at times.

 

Some engagements I had made me theorize that detection could be affected by aspect. I had T-72 not reacting at all at less than 3000m when approached them from behind, and I got regularly sniped by T-72 (that I never saw in the weeds) when I seemed to be in their front quarter.

 

Engagement ranges of the tanks could also be affected by AI skill level set in the mission editor, but that's just an educated guess.

 

 

Did my most recent tests from the side, will try approaching from behind and see if it makes a difference

[Kang]

The whole 'hiding behind trees' thing has actually improved vastly over time. It used to be much, much worse than that, basically AI units literally saw through everything but solid ground.

It has gotten better and generally buildings and trees do prevent the AI from seeing you now, but there are a few caveats:

- If a part of your plane or helicopter sticks out from your concealment, they do see you. This is a thing in DCS as much as it is in almost every other game there is. Getting AI to decide realistically on how much of something they need to be seeing in order to recognise it is just a classic issue. «Saw a tip of a shoe poke out from a shrubbery some 150 yards away. Definitely an enemy soldier there!»

- If they see you diving into that cover, they can keep on 'seeing' you for a short while, despite no line of sight. This serves two purposes really. One is to simulate how a crew would try to estimate your position at least somewhat. The other, probably more important one, is to prevent ground units from completely forgetting you are there every time you fly past behind a single tree or street lamp.

 

Both of these things do get a little worse by the fact that the AI in DCS has a 360° field of view. While some aircraft can be snuck up at from their definite blind spots, the rule is that anything that can possibly be seen by the crew, is seen by the crew. There is no chance to zoom past and get lucky because the tank commander happened to look at something else in that instance.

 

Ranges, speed of reaction and - I believe - duration of the 'memory guesstimate' are affected by skill level.

[ironk79]

What a mixed bag...tried to attack from behind, took out one T72, 2nd one sending a missile my way that i was able to dodge, then flanked around the him, waiting in front of him. After a while when he folowed initial route took him out head to head, without him noticing me behind the tree, some 2ish km away. Basically same aproach as my previous ones (side), but without the tanks magically spotting me. Was exactly how it "should" be, I dont know what to make of it...

[Harlikwin]

More or less you have to learn how to attack on the move and dodge. Which sucks. Especially since you have to Fly-n-gun versus just one or the other. Its more doable in the KA-50, but then again Vikhrs can be used out of tank gun range.

[daemon1808]

For me hidding behind the buildings works pretty well in that missions. I just engage collective autopilot a little over the building top as soon as I can get a clear view of the targets, and kill the tanks with total impunity.

It is true that, if you go up too much, the tanks will spot you and kill you because they aim like snippers.

[BaD CrC]

Tall buildings will work better for you than tree lines. But in general, yes, AI have supernatural capabilities. We are using tree lines for ingress, not really ambush.

Remember to turn off all of your lights after take off though. Hot choppers have their Nav lights and anti collision on by default and they make your chopper more visible by AI. A lot of people new to RW forget about that often.

Second point is to always work at max range. HOT3 works up to 4.3 km. Use that to find your drop points.

Also the Gazelle is usually firing on the move IRL. She is so tiny that it makes her really hard to hit even with the super DCS AI (Gazelle is actually great at baiting hidden units while KA50 are out there 8km away watching). But it s also harder to shoot on the move. Takes some practice.

[ironk79]

Tall buildings will work better for you than tree lines. But in general, yes, AI have supernatural capabilities. We are using tree lines for ingress, not really ambush.

Remember to turn off all of your lights after take off though. Hot choppers have their Nav lights and anti collision on by default and they make your chopper more visible by AI. A lot of people new to RW forget about that often.

Second point is to always work at max range. HOT3 works up to 4.3 km. Use that to find your drop points.

Also the Gazelle is usually firing on the move IRL. She is so tiny that it makes her really hard to hit even with the super DCS AI (Gazelle is actually great at baiting hidden units while KA50 are out there 8km away watching). But it s also harder to shoot on the move. Takes some practice.

,

 

 

At max HOT range, at least with the tested T72, one seems pretty safe even when T72 is facing to you or showing its side. Aproaching from behind you can get a lot closer, Tank is aiming at you, but not firing for some reason.

 

So basically range in the main Key. Although not what i was looking for, but at least something to work with

Edited May 19, 2020 by ironk79

[Volator]

T

Also the Gazelle is usually firing on the move IRL.

 

Do they? With HOT? I doubt that based on what I know about the PAH-1 (Bo-105P) which is very similar to the Gazelle anti-tank helicopter.

[wolf5]

You can shoot between 0 to 150km/h (possible up to 180km/h), cf MAT/8712

Edited May 20, 2020 by wolf5