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Varjo Technologies


Chops

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Today's newsletter mentioned a collaboration between Varjo and DCS, and that the Varjo headsets are now supported in DCS World.

 

 

Is there any additional information available about the Varjo VR headsets and their performance in DCS World?

 

 

The headsets aren't cheap - around $6000

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When I looked on their site it showed it started at $9,999
They have a cheaper one but still around the 5000$ mark.

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I‘m not really excited about these news - 5000 bucks minimum without shipping is out of range for most of the simmers. Native support for the Reverb would be more interesting from my point of view.

Modules and maps: all of them :doh:

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Native support for the Reverb would be more interesting from my point of view.

 

Yeah.

Possibly use the platform for the Varjo to develop native support for other consumer based headset.

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It's funny, when you look at the next gen prototypes facebook had last year this Varjo are just some brute force 1st gen upgrades... much like Pimax... With some bells and whistles for some execs looking for virtually experiencing their next bs presentation where they will have no clue anyway what they are talking about.

By contrast... facebook probably aims again for that 400$ release price...

 

I wish ED would perfect their rendering for normal VR than support with marketing material things that basically have no connection with the simmers wandering these forums.

 

E.G. Access current mainstream HMDs settings directly and correctly.


Edited by zaelu

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It's funny, when you look at the next gen prototypes facebook had last year this Varjo are just some brute force 1st gen upgrades... much like Pimax... With some bells and whistles for some execs looking for virtually experiencing their next bs presentation where they will have no clue anyway what they are talking about.

By contrast... facebook probably aims again for that 400$ release price...

 

I wish ED would perfect their rendering for normal VR than support with marketing material things that basically have no connection with the simmers wandering these forums.

 

E.G. Access current mainstream HMDs settings directly and correctly.

 

DCS ''wannabe fighter pilotz'' are not ED's only customers (likewise for BIS). Both developers have major contacts with global civil and defense industries and both produce professional simulations for governments around the world. If they had to choose between the neckbeards residing on these forums, and their government contracts, which one do you think is worth more money and generates less ''e-rage''?

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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If I could maintain playable framerates in the Vario headset, I would honestly consider purchasing one. Some guys spend $40k on a 4WD for weekend fun. I'd rather spend $20k on a high-end rig, Vario headset and a greenscreen room with cockpit.

 

Unfortunately DCS performs extremely poorly by VR standards, to the point where we have to rely on a technology all the time, reprojection, which is meant to only be used extremely rarely, when the system can't maintain the proper framerate. I'm sure the Vario's resolution isn't quite as incredible as they make out, either.

 

Still, in ten years time this could be a reality, but until then I'm still blown away by what we have on offer today.

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I'll be honest, and I'm doing my best to be respectful.

 

It smells like BS. Yes Varjo are great headsets. But like a lot of DCS marketing it seems like BS. I can't fathom how it works with DCS at anything other than the powerpoint level framerates we've all come to love..

 

If ED actually provided specs for the system running it and some actual settings I'd be interested. And first question is if those frame rates are anywhere near 90fps.

 

Meanwhile I have the amongst the highest end commercial systems possible running a Reverb, with marginal results. So unless there is some "commercial" build, that actually works in VR I'll take it with about as much seriousness as I take DCS being an actual "modern" "combat" simulator. Which its not to anyone who uses the Oxford English Dictionary for those terms.

 

Its kinda like the whole CaptoGlove fiasco IMO. There are some great videos on youtube, but literally no-one here on the forum has gotten it to work. Whats up with that ED?

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I'll be honest, and I'm doing my best to be respectful.

 

It smells like BS. Yes Varjo are great headsets. But like a lot of DCS marketing it seems like BS. I can't fathom how it works with DCS at anything other than the powerpoint level framerates we've all come to love..

 

If ED actually provided specs for the system running it and some actual settings I'd be interested. And first question is if those frame rates are anywhere near 90fps.

 

Meanwhile I have the amongst the highest end commercial systems possible running a Reverb, with marginal results. So unless there is some "commercial" build, that actually works in VR I'll take it with about as much seriousness as I take DCS being an actual "modern" "combat" simulator. Which its not to anyone who uses the Oxford English Dictionary for those terms.

 

Its kinda like the whole CaptoGlove fiasco IMO. There are some great videos on youtube, but literally no-one here on the forum has gotten it to work. Whats up with that ED?

 

I am 100% with you one this. CaptoGlove would be in my home right now if I saw others had it working correctly. I would have worked overtime to buy it. As it stands, I have Ultraleap/Leap Motion now and have most of the capability CaptoGlove promised minus the virtual hands being connected to the virtual pilot's arms at a fraction of the price.

 

I have a Rift S. I don't see a reason to buy anything better because there isn't a PC out there that can give me a better experience no matter how much better the VR headset is than the Rift S.

 

The Varjo promises to deliver the kind of image quality I would love, but it comes with three big costs:

1) A lot of money

2) It will run like a slide show with even the best hardware available if you try to use that quality with DCS World

3) The field of view is far from impressive for that price tag.

 

I want to see VR get the pixels per degree up so high that it is considered a "retina display".

I want to see VR get a field of view so wide that it matches or exceeds my peripheral vision so that I don't fee like I am looking through a tube.

I want to see the hardware, drivers, and other assisting tech like eye tracking reach a point where I can have the first two items and still have a stable frame rate at 90fps or better.

I want to see all of this available at a price the average consumer can afford so that VR becomes as big a deal as it would be if all of the above were true.

 

In the mean time, a $6,000 head set that will look no better than my Rift S if I lower my settings enough to get playable frame rates is not happening for me.

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I'll be honest, and I'm doing my best to be respectful.

 

It smells like BS. Yes Varjo are great headsets. But like a lot of DCS marketing it seems like BS. I can't fathom how it works with DCS at anything other than the powerpoint level framerates we've all come to love..

 

If ED actually provided specs for the system running it and some actual settings I'd be interested. And first question is if those frame rates are anywhere near 90fps.

 

Meanwhile I have the amongst the highest end commercial systems possible running a Reverb, with marginal results. So unless there is some "commercial" build, that actually works in VR I'll take it with about as much seriousness as I take DCS being an actual "modern" "combat" simulator. Which its not to anyone who uses the Oxford English Dictionary for those terms.

 

Its kinda like the whole CaptoGlove fiasco IMO. There are some great videos on youtube, but literally no-one here on the forum has gotten it to work. Whats up with that ED?

 

I think Varjo works with compoter which run reverb similary. Varjo offer 87 Degree fov with lower resolution than Reverb. Additionally Varjo offer 60 PPD vision in center of vision field. I think it uses eye tracking to define where better resolutiion is, but I am unsure how good it is.

 

Varjo

Next-generation Bionic Display™ with resolution at over 20/20 vision (over 60 PPD / 3000 PPI), flicker-free screen refresh at 60/90 Hz. Combining two 1920 x 1080 low persistence micro-OLEDs and two 1440 x 1600 low persistence AMOLEDs.

So Varjo have 2 * 1920 x 1080 + 2 * 1440 x 1600 = 8 755 200 pixels

Reverb have 9 331 200 pixels (114 degree fov), Varjo have lesser pixel count.

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All the technology they're talking about are not developed by them. They're just taking exiting technologies and combining them into their headset. HTC already had eye tracking and foveated rendering.

 

 

Oculus has hand tracking already and these Vargo HMD's also use Vive base stations. And just mark up the price because it's for businesses.

 

Historically, companies that develop for enterprises only don't reach far. Google Glass for example. At least Google Glass developed their own stuff. These guys... not sure.

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I think Varjo works with compoter which run reverb similary. Varjo offer 87 Degree fov with lower resolution than Reverb. Additionally Varjo offer 60 PPD vision in center of vision field. I think it uses eye tracking to define where better resolutiion is, but I am unsure how good it is.

 

Varjo

Next-generation Bionic Display™ with resolution at over 20/20 vision (over 60 PPD / 3000 PPI), flicker-free screen refresh at 60/90 Hz. Combining two 1920 x 1080 low persistence micro-OLEDs and two 1440 x 1600 low persistence AMOLEDs.

So Varjo have 2 * 1920 x 1080 + 2 * 1440 x 1600 = 8 755 200 pixels

Reverb have 9 331 200 pixels (114 degree fov), Varjo have lesser pixel count.

 

Yeah, not sure how Varjo is handling rendering 4 different scenes is all. But yeah overall pixel wise its close. But multiple rendering passes like that can't be cheap computationally.

New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)

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1. I want to see VR get the pixels per degree up so high that it is considered a "retina display".

2. I want to see VR get a field of view so wide that it matches or exceeds my peripheral vision so that I don't fee like I am looking through a tube.

3. I want to see the hardware, drivers, and other assisting tech like eye tracking reach a point where I can have the first two items and still have a stable frame rate at 90fps or better.

4. I want to see all of this available at a price the average consumer can afford so that VR becomes as big a deal as it would be if all of the above were true.

 

1. Well Varjo is pretty much there. Retinal PPD is considered like 70 for most people. If they are at 60 you probably can't tell.

 

1.1 There was some German company that was promising mid 40's or low 50's PPD in an 87 degree FOV, for ~1k.

 

2. Pimax is there, but the PPD isn't.

 

3. Actually the performance is entirely a DCS problem. I can run my reverb at 90 with almost any other "sim".

 

4. Give it a few years is all I can say. Its happening faster than I thought it would. I didn't expect something like the reverb resolution wise till 2022.

 

I'm fairly excited about the Gen2 reverb. Good price point, same pixels, and they will hopefully fix the various minor issues like clarity and IPD. And I'm hoping that with the 3080ti I can finally get some reasonably stable frames with DCS, even if its unlikely to be 90fps.

New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)

Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).

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87deg FOV + $10k = I'm out

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87deg FOV + $10k = I'm out

 

Honmestly I think the various companies are gonna catch up where Varjo is in a few short years at much lower price points.

 

Foveated rendering is starting to be a thing with the VivePro eye, though it remains unclear if it actually saves you much in terms of performance due to the way they have to do it (multiple rendering passes).

 

The main bottleneck is enough HP to run the graphics at really high res. Varjo's is one approach but really the limit isn't so much the pixels, its how they are presented. StarVR uses less pixels than a Reverb and probably looks just as good since they didn't cheap out on optics as an example. So there are multiple ways to skin the cat. And I forsee that in the next 3 years we will get into the 40ppd range being "normal", so no more SDE, decent but not retinal level resolution and probably some choices on FOV's.

New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)

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I'll be happy when I can play DCS VR at 60fps minimum in my Reverb without having to turn the visuals down to Commodore 64 levels.

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I'll be happy when I can play DCS VR at 60fps minimum in my Reverb without having to turn the visuals down to Commodore 64 levels.

 

Yeah.... Well 3080ti should be 20% or so better... depending on your current frames...

New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)

Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).

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"87deg FOV + $10k = I'm out"

 

Yep.

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  • 1 year later...
On 5/29/2020 at 8:29 PM, Chops said:

Today's newsletter mentioned a collaboration between Varjo and DCS, and that the Varjo headsets are now supported in DCS World.

 

 

Is there any additional information available about the Varjo VR headsets and their performance in DCS World?

 

 

The headsets aren't cheap - around $6000

has there been any more updates with ED and Varjo - I'd like to see support for eye tracking and foveated rendering.

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Some of us have pre-ordered and awaiting the Aero. Hopefully soon.

Don B

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