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New Aim-120 Thoughts?


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Amazing isnt it ?

 

Tbh I like the previous one as it had much more speed than now and also gave a room for less perfect notching to evade it (probably). Previous one launched at 20 mil angel 20k ft still had much energy to hit compared the new one (in MP).

 

A note, I'm not talking about which one is more realistic (as I don't have an expertise regarding this) just a personal preference. If ED think the new one is more realistic so be it, I have no problem with that.

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The guidance has always been deterministic, so it is currently exactly as reliable as it was 1 year ago, as long as you studied the thing properly through testing. What has changed is simply its actual capability. The zones in which there is no possible escape have always been consistent. The spots in which there is no possible escape with any DCS fighter have just increased massively.

 

Same for the amount of respect that needs to be given at long range, it was always consistent if you spent the time researching it. The actual number in any given situation has simply increased.

 

So in short, the thing has already been the best air to air weapon in DCS in comparision to for example the russian missiles. Now its just barely even in the same class.

 

Not really. The typical kill range was 6-8 nm against good pilots and the best would still be able to evade them, and very often completely negate any 120s especially in 1v1 scenarios. It was comparatively easy to notch them and very often you did not even have to notch for a long time but rather just a split second and it would trash the missile.

 

If you fought against a good opponent 1v1 generally you ended up in a WVR merge without missiles because all of the missiles would get notched.

 

You could defeat missiles at pretty much any short range including even 2-3 nm shots with relative ease when normally you should have no business being alive in that situation.

 

Now it is extremely difficult to notch a 120. Even in laboratory environments it's a struggle where with the previous model we would consistently end up in gun merge because we notched all the missiles.

 

Amazing isnt it ?

 

Tbh I like the previous one as it had much more speed than now and also gave a room for less perfect notching to evade it (probably). Previous one launched at 20 mil angel 20k ft still had much energy to hit compared the new one (in MP).

 

A note, I'm not talking about which one is more realistic (as I don't have an expertise regarding this) just a personal preference. If ED think the new one is more realistic so be it, I have no problem with that.

 

The one before the rework had very silly guidance problems. What we have now might be a little over the top in some areas, but otherwise is a huge step forward. I'm very happy to see missiles finally not pulling G to avoid the target or to missposition themselves by agressively resetting to 1 G dumping all their energy.

 

I think there might be something wrong with the seeker, the missile seems very good at tracking targets in a perfect notch with ground clutter. I don't really know how this is possible with a pulse-doppler radar. On paper, flying in ground clutter holding a good notch should mean you're invisible to the radar. This is all without chaff.

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In the last several days, I have flown several sorties on the 104th and have shot around 20-24 Aim-120C's. Out of those fired, ONLY ONE managed a kill and it was at a target at 50000 ft from 10 miles away. So that's a kill rate of oh.... a little over 4%. I'm not questioning realism as much as I am the false advertising done by ED saying that this was even deadlier than before. Don't let yourself be fooled, it is not. There were instances where the guidance in the end went haywire and missed the target when it should not have but 90% of the time, the missile ran out of energy. BRING BACK THE PHOENIX!

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In the last several days, I have flown several sorties on the 104th and have shot around 20-24 Aim-120C's. Out of those fired, ONLY ONE managed a kill and it was at a target at 50000 ft from 10 miles away. So that's a kill rate of oh.... a little over 4%. I'm not questioning realism as much as I am the false advertising done by ED saying that this was even deadlier than before. Don't let yourself be fooled, it is not. There were instances where the guidance in the end went haywire and missed the target when it should not have but 90% of the time, the missile ran out of energy. BRING BACK THE PHOENIX!

 

Interesting. I have only flown in closed test sessions online but experienced the opposite. Almost impossible to defeat the guidance of the new 120C, no matter what you do. It was more than just me but I've faced atleast 50-60 shots within 10 - 8 nm that was specifically set up to test whether the old tactics still work and outside the odd luck almost every single missile connected. I didn't bother testing long range shots or defeating them kinematically but I expect those should be more deadly too.

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Not really. The typical kill range was 6-8 nm against good pilots and the best would still be able to evade them, and very often completely negate any 120s especially in 1v1 scenarios. It was comparatively easy to notch them and very often you did not even have to notch for a long time but rather just a split second and it would trash the missile.

 

If you fought against a good opponent 1v1 generally you ended up in a WVR merge without missiles because all of the missiles would get notched.

 

You could defeat missiles at pretty much any short range including even 2-3 nm shots with relative ease when normally you should have no business being alive in that situation.

 

Now it is extremely difficult to notch a 120. Even in laboratory environments it's a struggle where with the previous model we would consistently end up in gun merge because we notched all the missiles.

 

As said the mistakes that you can get away with have gotten less numerous and the situations in which the missile is impossible to chaff have increased in number. But it was consistent before. Fire a missile at 5nm head on-> he has to find a non kinematic defensive option. You may still have had to finish him with guns (super easy in the F-15 anyway) as he is locked in his notch, but he is dead either way. But nothing random or unreliable. You just needed range tables like disciplined squadrons like SF have put the effort in to create, training to time shots with 0.1 mile precision. But if youre lazy and practically try to approach the fight like CSGO, sure, every missile shot is random and if you die youre just unlucky.

 

If it makes you happy, the russian missiles still get out Gd, defeated by a barrel roll within AMRAAM no escape zone, chaffed. All without any notch needed. So in comparision to that even the old AIM-120 were wish-you-dead weapons.


Edited by Max1mus
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As said the mistakes that you can get away with have gotten less numerous and the situations in which the missile is impossible to chaff have increased in number. But it was consistent before. Fire a missile at 5nm head on-> he has to find a non kinematic defensive option. You may still have had to finish him with guns (super easy in the F-15 anyway) as he is locked in his notch, but he is dead either way. But nothing random or unreliable. You just needed range tables like disciplined squadrons like SF have put the effort in to create, training to time shots with 0.1 mile precision. But if youre lazy and practically try to approach the fight like CSGO, sure, every missile shot is random and if you die youre just unlucky.

 

If it makes you happy, the russian missiles still get out Gd, defeated by a barrel roll within AMRAAM no escape zone, chaffed. All without any notch needed. So in comparision to that even the old AIM-120 were wish-you-dead weapons.

 

I've been doing my range science forever. I find it amusing that you're just pretending one of the top A2A squadrons are just lazy people and don't know their shit.

 

I'm talking about defeating the guidance, not kinematics. Of course kinematics are reliable. There is a range for every scenario where you can safely get out just by split S-ing and running. But you could 90% reliable dodge almost any ARH no matter if fired within 5 nm or even closer by dumpstering the guidance. Since you're being rude I'll return the favor and say if you could not do this then you're simply not good enough. :)

 

Sometimes you can set up the geometry to be impossible to defeat, but this is usually only possible of the other guy is in a tempo disadvantage or he doesn't see you.

 

SF are one of the best but they are not known for their safety flying. Look at past years SATAC / SATAL ACMIs and you will see them doing unreal piloting to just push and outplay just about anyone. If I faced anyone from SF I would count on it as the least likely option that he will F pole turn and run.

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I have no idea how everyone is getting such vastly different results. For me against any High skill set AI Mig-21,23,29 any shot is pretty much a miss using the Aim-120, also holds true for the AIM-7. Could this be a computer hardware issue? I run a i9-7900x 3.3GHz with 32GB RAM and a Nvidia TitanXP video card on a windows 10 64bit OS with solid state hard drives. Is this rig to slow to run DSC I don't have issues with FPS and overall it seems to run well.

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Sometimes you can set up the geometry to be impossible to defeat, but this is usually only possible of the other guy is in a tempo disadvantage or he doesn't see you.

 

That is exactly what i mean. These positions where an AIM-120 has a PK of exactly 100% are way easier to set up since the last 2 patches. But they existed with the previous versions. The word "unreliable" is just inappropriate when the missile (unlike others in the sim) never just missed at mach 3 without the target even having to turn the nose away from you.


Edited by Max1mus
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i see some people here say that the previous Aim-120c is better than today .......... ok

 

first question do u know how to shoot missiles ????

second what on earth are u talking about ?????

third u really believe yourself ?????

fourth do u want a missile that u can shoot from anywhere and kill the target no matter what condition u used to shoot the missile ???? if that so then go play call of duty and choose a sniper as your main weapon

 

the new Aim-120 is really very very good auto pilot system and ILS system and guidance work perfect even more when it got defeated he can do a 180 degree turn and reacquire the target again i saw it . i test it . i am not waiting for u to tell me i am wrong cuz i am 100% not

 

the missile can fly more smoothly than before 100% . Drag is good . maybe turn rate is a bit ( wrong cuz it exceed aim-9x i dont know why ) .

 

the missile is very deadly and ignore chaff and notch + chaff all old tactics is useless now against this missile u need to be creative . u need to stay in Notch much longer . use more chaff . lower your speed a lot

 

i am aggressive yes cuz i know what the missile can do now . i did a hell amount of test specially when i am in defender seat .

 

and wish this New API system finished so it can apply to all DCS missiles

 

thanks

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I like how it turns instantly. We got Behind enemy lines situation here. Btw only way to get more pk, Just keep locking target in STT until target hit. For some reason TWS lock is unreliable. Don't even think about guiding two in two targets. For some reason if missile doesn't get constant update, it flies away to space.

Though it reduces SPAMRAAMing.

 

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For some reason TWS lock is unreliable.

 

 

Science is the reason.

 

You have to use very high update rates if you expect TWS to keep up with a bandit maneuvering on the edge because he's defending against a missile.

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Science is the reason.

 

You have to use very high update rates if you expect TWS to keep up with a bandit maneuvering on the edge because he's defending against a missile.

Something feels wrong and I don't knw what. Effectiveness of long range multi target engagement is lowered compared to earlier versions. AI teammates can't cope up with changes, will miss more shots than hit. But I can't pinpoint what is wrong with 120 and aim 7s currently, since I m no expert regarding radar or missile.

It's really hits hard when you do hour long campaign to get to engagement than to see 120c are too OP and you can guide 4 missiles at 4 targets, but in next build there effectiveness is lowered and it can't be done.

I knw it matters in MP but SP campaigns break so easily beacuse of this changes. Played kaba cage the bear hornet mission.

I haven't touched TWS yet in the campaign.

 

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Science is the reason.

 

You have to use very high update rates if you expect TWS to keep up with a bandit maneuvering on the edge because he's defending against a missile.

 

Yes, its the way that is supposed to be. But a big disclaimer, I wouldn't bet any money that this ED simulating diferences between updates rates (STT > TWS 80 deg > TWS 20 2 bar), but instead it could be just a bug caused by recent changes.

 

Last week TWS was not even updating the amraam and in the intent to fix it maybe there are still things wrong in the code. We will see.

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Yes, its the way that is supposed to be. But a big disclaimer, I wouldn't bet any money that this ED simulating diferences between updates rates (STT > TWS 80 deg > TWS 20 2 bar), but instead it could be just a bug caused by recent changes.

 

 

 

Last week TWS was not even updating the amraam and in the intent to fix it maybe there are still things wrong in the code. We will see.

Yes that's what I'm getting into. I haven't seen people mentioning it, or ED acknowledging it. It's quite unclear if it is intended behaviour. We just solve it by bringing real life scenarios and making the subject complicated to follow.

 

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I'm not sure why people are saying they're unreliable in TWS. I've been flying CAP a lot online lately and the net result is the missile is far more reliable than before, especially at longer ranges of about 30nm+. You get the occasional successful notch but that's about it. This is after shooting down well over a hundred aircraft.

I don't test for bugs, but when I do I do it in production.

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  • ED Team
I thought I saw it was reported as a bug that in particular the F18's TWS was unreliable and sometimes missiles wouldn't get the updates?

 

Hi

 

With large azimuth and bar settings, it will have trouble providing detailed missile guidance and holding a track.

 

thanks

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Hence why TWS has limited settings to ensure every target gets a pass every two seconds, according to a doc out there the refresh rate while in midcourse is 1sec. And even with large settings for example in LTWS shouldn't the computer send extrapolated position updates, alongside accurate updates, so long as the missile can receive updates? Besides I was more talking about where iirc it was reported where the missile didn't get any updates at all and just flew straight or on its initial loft trajectory.

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...Besides I was more talking about where iirc it was reported where the missile didn't get any updates at all and just flew straight or on its initial loft trajectory.

That bug was fixed.

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No. F/A-18's TWS is still only able to guide AMRAAM to L&S target. So shooting multiple bandits with AMRAAM is really hard or impossible even almost seven months passed since first introduction of TWS.

Thats not what nighthawk was referring to afaik, he was referring to the now fixed bug where even the L&S gave no midcourse guidance. As for this new bug there are a few workarounds, like constantly swapping between the L&S and DT2.

Eagle Enthusiast, Fresco Fan. Patiently waiting for the F-15E. Clicky F-15C when?

HP Z400 Workstation

Intel Xeon W3680 (i7-980X) OC'd to 4.0 GHz, EVGA GTX 1060 6GB SSC Gaming, 24 GB DDR3 RAM, 500GB Crucial MX500 SSD. Thrustmaster T16000M FCS HOTAS, DIY opentrack head-tracking. I upload DCS videos here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0-7L3Z5nJ-QUX5M7Dh1pGg

 

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Thats not what nighthawk was referring to afaik, he was referring to the now fixed bug where even the L&S gave no midcourse guidance. As for this new bug there are a few workarounds, like constantly swapping between the L&S and DT2.
I would say that is a bug not fixed. TWS still is "partially" bugged.

 

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