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Pretty simple. Modules cost more than most triple-A titles and remain in EA state for very long periods. Regression bugs are introduced all the time. These factors lead to people getting frustrated.

 

The true difference is that modules are being worked on for years while Triple A titles get abandoned after a few weeks, left in an early accessesque state forever.

dcsdashie-hb-ed.jpg

 

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The true difference is that modules are being worked on for years while Triple A titles get abandoned after a few weeks, left in an early accessesque state forever.

 

Exactly this! AAA-Games are way better funded as this pearl. It’s way not perfect. I hust wann to say that constructive criticism is important but flaming isn‘t.

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Hey this thing is shit how can you put this crap up etc... etc... = negative

 

 

Both times a critic but there s a big difference.

 

That's more of a complaint than a critic. And if you pay for something and not happy, you have right to complain. And you can just leave it at that. You don't have to defend or worse, criticize the complaint.

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This is the same sort of cancer as the time subscription softwares, like photoshop, that has taken over the market nowadays. Before, you'd paid £80 for the whole package. Now, they charge you that for just a single plane. :thumbup:

 

I remember the days when softwares were released when they were done. Then patches became a thing. Release first and finish later. Falcon 4.0 I believe was the first major title to do this. For the reason of it being "Very complex".

Now pay for beta test is becoming a thing. Star Citizen for example. And give excuse for them being buggy as it's just "Beta". I certainly hope FS 2020 doesn't follow this model.

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I remember the days when softwares were released when they were done.

 

You don’t remember the games that were released, sold thousands of copies and then never received any update at all? For example:

 

Jane’s ww2 fighters

Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator

Chuck yeager’s air combat

 

They all had the same release cycle: they appeared, you learned them and then you purchased something else, as they never got more missions or features.

 

I remember well .. and believe me, we are now much better, in spite of the bugs.

 

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Personally I think this game is the finest game I've ever played.

 

I found an Atari 2600 game (Sky Skipper) in the loft the other year and it was priced up at £24.99 (GBP) - this would have originally been purchased by my parents in Asda around 1982, so a significant amount of money for a few levels of play. I've mentioned in a previous thread where as a teen I would play the likes of FA-18 Interceptor on the Amiga in complete awe of the graphics for hours on end. Could anyone then actually believe we've got to where we are now!?

 

My background is in electronics and programming, so I can appreciate some of the computation going on in the background of DCS. I am only a casual gamer, so imagine I use about 5% of DCS's capabilities - but every time I play the game another gem is presented to me.

 

I can appreciate some feel frustrated by missed deadlines etc, but the alternative is complete radio silence and updates coming along whenever they come along. ED can't win really - I for one prefer their EA approach. I'm just happy with the game as it is and consider all the updates to be icing on the cake really. I've had my money's worth 10 times over for the modules I've bought, even though most are considered unfinished.

 

I put approx. £80 of fuel in my car each week for the commute - which of course comes out of the exhaust pipe in the end. I've probably spent around £300 on ED modules/maps to fate. I play every night for at least an hour - so it's a complete bargain in my mind and anything that comes along in the way of updates is a bonus. Ultimately this is a game to be enjoyed, so just enjoy it.

 

Software development is a complicated process and to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld - there are many unknown unknowns waiting to surprise you. Epic job ED!!! The game is an absolute masterpiece.

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You don’t remember the games that were released, sold thousands of copies and then never received any update at all? For example:

 

Jane’s ww2 fighters

Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator

Chuck yeager’s air combat

 

They all had the same release cycle: they appeared, you learned them and then you purchased something else, as they never got more missions or features.

 

I remember well .. and believe me, we are now much better, in spite of the bugs.

 

You saying this doesn't happen with DCS? When was the last time FC3 planes got more missions or features?

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You saying this doesn't happen with DCS? When was the last time FC3 planes got more missions or features?

 

There's loads of user-created missions for free download.


Edited by Derby2P
Adding the word "free".
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Oh so user created content is what we're expanding to now. So we should thank Microprose for Falcon 4.0 user created contents?

 

No - can't remember what I paid for FC3 now.......but think around £30. I've had my money's worth out of that game 100 times over now and continue to use most of the a/c regularly.

 

Cheers.

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No - can't remember what I paid for FC3 now.......but think around £30. I've had my money's worth out of that game 100 times over now and continue to use most of the a/c regularly.

 

Cheers.

 

Exactly. That was my point regarding

 

Jane’s ww2 fighters

Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator

Chuck yeager’s air combat

 

Cheers as well.

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Personally I think this game is the finest game I've ever played.

 

I found an Atari 2600 game (Sky Skipper) in the loft the other year and it was priced up at £24.99 (GBP) - this would have originally been purchased by my parents in Asda around 1982, so a significant amount of money for a few levels of play. I've mentioned in a previous thread where as a teen I would play the likes of FA-18 Interceptor on the Amiga in complete awe of the graphics for hours on end. Could anyone then actually believe we've got to where we are now!?

 

My background is in electronics and programming, so I can appreciate some of the computation going on in the background of DCS. I am only a casual gamer, so imagine I use about 5% of DCS's capabilities - but every time I play the game another gem is presented to me.

 

I can appreciate some feel frustrated by missed deadlines etc, but the alternative is complete radio silence and updates coming along whenever they come along. ED can't win really - I for one prefer their EA approach. I'm just happy with the game as it is and consider all the updates to be icing on the cake really. I've had my money's worth 10 times over for the modules I've bought, even though most are considered unfinished.

 

I put approx. £80 of fuel in my car each week for the commute - which of course comes out of the exhaust pipe in the end. I've probably spent around £300 on ED modules/maps to fate. I play every night for at least an hour - so it's a complete bargain in my mind and anything that comes along in the way of updates is a bonus. Ultimately this is a game to be enjoyed, so just enjoy it.

 

Software development is a complicated process and to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld - there are many unknown unknowns waiting to surprise you. Epic job ED!!! The game is an absolute masterpiece.

 

I feel the same way! Well said. Even for $80, for what we get, it's absolutely fair. And I'm not saying I think this is a cheap hobby, either. $80 is a lot of money, but I definitely feel it's well worth it. And when on sale for 20 or 50% off, it's truly an absolute steal.

 

This EA business model is frustrating at times, for sure, but for the most part they dont release updates that critically damage the module or make it unplayable. That's the key. No software will ever be bug free - it only because a true problem when serious bugs make it into the release. But, all that said, I'd still much rather have this system than the "old" method cited, where the software is released and it "is what it is". Maybe it will get an update, maybe not. Here, we all learn, grow, develop, supply feedback and adjust together. Many more viewpoints get incorporated into how the software should behave. How the plane should fly. Gives time for real world pilots to weigh in. Dev team has time to implement things and find workarounds. Etc. There are SO many times the pros outweigh the cons. And we get a much, much better product cause of it. When you're in software development and you have a hard deadline, the product is almost always inferior. You simply cant develop modules like this in that way.

 

We should not ever forget how complex these modules are, and remember that attempting to compare them to past products from different companies is apples and oranges. As far as I know, no one has ever attempted something as complex as the modeling in DCS aircraft. There are even many documented cases of real world Hornet and Viper drivers, for example, who are in awe of DCS's aircraft fidelity - stating the overall experience is FAR better than the military sims they have. Imagine that! BTW Even the full motion sims for the military and airlines have some pretty crazy bugs. I encountered some really odd things in my own flight training. And let us not forget that the ACTUAL aircraft have software bugs, too. DCS is doing just fine.

 

Personally, it's absolutely incredible the depth of coding and interconnections. I've done some coding before, and let me tell you, the amount of work that must go into just a single module is mindblowing. It's not just art time and coding. It's research, study of systems, testing, etc. It's just crazy they're able to do all this with such a small team. Hats off to each and every one of the ED team members! Anyone who disagrees either doesnt comprehend what's involved or they're just in a bad mood. Both things happen to the best of us.

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When was the last time FC3 planes got more missions or features?

 

Let's see:

 

DCS 2.0 I got to fly FC3 on Nevada ... new missions too.

DCS 2.5 I got a revamped Caucasus Map ... and in this case, for free.

DCS ?? More new Maps: Normandy, Persian Gulf ... new missions.

DCS ?? New Campaigns for the F-15: Agreesors; Georgian War; Red Flag; for the Su-27 The Ultimate Argument.

 

:smilewink:

 

For work: iMac mid-2010 of 27" - Core i7 870 - 6 GB DDR3 1333 MHz - ATI HD5670 - SSD 256 GB - HDD 2 TB - macOS High Sierra

For Gaming: 34" Monitor - Ryzen 3600X - 32 GB DDR4 2400 - nVidia GTX1070ti - SSD 1.25 TB - HDD 10 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Cougar - Oculus Rift CV1

Mobile: iPad Pro 12.9" of 256 GB

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Let's see:

 

DCS 2.0 I got to fly FC3 on Nevada ... new missions too.

DCS 2.5 I got a revamped Caucasus Map ... and in this case, for free.

DCS ?? More new Maps: Normandy, Persian Gulf ... new missions.

DCS ?? New Campaigns for the F-15: Agreesors; Georgian War; Red Flag; for the Su-27 The Ultimate Argument.

 

:smilewink:

 

Maybe I misunderstood you. You were saying those

 

Jane’s ww2 fighters

Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator

Chuck yeager’s air combat

 

didn't get any additional contents like expansion packs you can purchase? Well then yea, you play, you get your money's worth, and move on. And play again as those titles had replay values. But they were "FINISHED" when they were released.

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2 sides to every coin.

 

Most if not all of the 'critics' actually love the game...hell I do, and I'm a big critic. Remember, they produce stuff, we pay for it. Just churning out something (incomplete now with the EA process) and expecting a pat on the back doesn't work anymore...not when it can take years to get to the end. Hell, I bought the Huey back in 2013...and I'm still waiting for my shared cockpit. Its 2020. The module has been released as complete. But I'm still waiting for my shared cockpit.

 

Part of our job as customers is to provide feedback. Thats part of the EA process isn't it? while it may come across as criticism, its actually feedback. some good, some bad. If we were all fan boys, how would ED actually know whats wrong? how long they're taking? There's an old saying 'give a worker 5 days and he'll take 5 days'. What we're trying to avoid is a 'just push it out and we can relax and enjoy the $$ coming in until they start complaining then we start work again'. Not to say ED does that (we know they're busy), but software development is still a business...a project business which has to abide by business rules including timelines, feedback, making/keeping the customer happy, etc.

 

DCS is by far the most impressive combat flight sim I've ever seen. Being able to take off from the supercarrier, refuel, fly 200nm to bomb a target, fight some jets, refuel and do a full Case II or III landing back on a carrier is just awesome. However, DCS isn't perfect. There's lots of buys flying around. Little ones, big ones. Most we can ignore or say to ourselves 'yeah, that'll be fixed soon' but...I'm still waiting for my Huey shared cockpit....and its been 7 years. For the Huey. Yeah its small in the scheme of things (look how far we've come) BUT I paid for the Huey with a shared cockpit...thats what was marketed at the time of EA. You keep doing stuff like this then customers start to get frustrated and doubt your word.

 

As someone above posted, our criticism HAS lead to improvements in the way ED operates...or atleast communicates. Thats excellent. But don't fight the developers' battles for them. They're the ones getting paid. we support them with our money and time but we're entitled to provide criticism.

 

And I'm in Aust...almost every module (even discounted) costs more than a AAA title.

 

remember, most if not all of us are here because we actually LOVE DCS. Not because we're trolls.

AMD AM4 Ryzen7 3700X 3.6ghz/MSI AM4 ATX MAG X570 Tomahawk DDR4/32GB DDR4 G.Skill 3600mhz/1TB 970 Evo SSD/ASUS RTX2070 8gb Super

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No - can't remember what I paid for FC3 now.......but think around £30. I've had my money's worth out of that game 100 times over now and continue to use most of the a/c regularly.

 

 

 

Cheers.

And I had my money's worth out of Jane's and other stuff in the pre-internet era. So?

My controls & seat

 

Main controls: , BRD-N v4 Flightstick (Kreml C5 controller), TM Warthog Throttle (Kreml F3 controller), BRD-F2 Restyling Bf-109 Pedals w. damper, TrackIR5, Gametrix KW-908 (integrated into RAV4 seat)

Stick grips:

Thrustmaster Warthog

Thrustmaster Cougar (x2)

Thrustmaster F-16 FLCS

BRD KG13

 

Standby controls:

BRD-M2 Mi-8 Pedals (Ruddermaster controller)

BRD-N v3 Flightstick w. exch. grip upgrade (Kreml C5 controller)

Thrustmaster Cougar Throttle

Pilot seat

 

 

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Let's see:

 

 

 

DCS 2.0 I got to fly FC3 on Nevada ... new missions too.

 

DCS 2.5 I got a revamped Caucasus Map ... and in this case, for free.

 

DCS ?? More new Maps: Normandy, Persian Gulf ... new missions.

 

DCS ?? New Campaigns for the F-15: Agreesors; Georgian War; Red Flag; for the Su-27 The Ultimate Argument.

 

 

 

:smilewink:

Jesus, seriously, you guys mixed everything up. You're comparing what now? A mid-90s retail game on physical media with a modern EA title with tons of paid DLCs? Apples to oranges. Big time.

My controls & seat

 

Main controls: , BRD-N v4 Flightstick (Kreml C5 controller), TM Warthog Throttle (Kreml F3 controller), BRD-F2 Restyling Bf-109 Pedals w. damper, TrackIR5, Gametrix KW-908 (integrated into RAV4 seat)

Stick grips:

Thrustmaster Warthog

Thrustmaster Cougar (x2)

Thrustmaster F-16 FLCS

BRD KG13

 

Standby controls:

BRD-M2 Mi-8 Pedals (Ruddermaster controller)

BRD-N v3 Flightstick w. exch. grip upgrade (Kreml C5 controller)

Thrustmaster Cougar Throttle

Pilot seat

 

 

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I don‘t think that oranges and Apples are Mixed up. EA is very common Now in the whole games industry. But compared to other Triple-AAA EA Games (I look at you SW BF II) you a product which is fun to play. After some Time in DCS i wasn‘t able to play other Sims because the Grafe of Detail in Systems was too Low. And yes! Even in EA the modules are far more complex than other whole Sims. EA Is a thin line between happy and disappointed customers. It’s some times frustrating me too. These deadlines which are exeeded every Time. Old bugs going, new ones are approaching. But After all it’s a Game where we all have fun with. Sometimes when I reading these Forums you could think ED Is the worst developer ever. I bought every Module and I‘m Not happy with everything. But I‘m Not disappointed because in Relation I flown 400 Hours with the Hornet for 80 Dollar and it isn‘t still boring. I fly with the Mustang over the PG and every single time I see new Details. I fly approaches on the SC and it feels like I doing the stuff that real pilots doing. (BTW I bought the SC for 9 Dollar because of miles).

Matt is doing the Tutorial-Stuff on youtube. So why some people are so toxic? Name me One Triple AAA Title which isn’t boring after Thousands of Hours?

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I don‘t think that oranges and Apples are Mixed up. EA is very common Now in the whole games industry. But compared to other Triple-AAA EA Games (I look at you SW BF II) you a product which is fun to play. After some Time in DCS i wasn‘t able to play other Sims because the Grafe of Detail in Systems was too Low. And yes! Even in EA the modules are far more complex than other whole Sims. EA Is a thin line between happy and disappointed customers. It’s some times frustrating me too. These deadlines which are exeeded every Time. Old bugs going, new ones are approaching. But After all it’s a Game where we all have fun with. Sometimes when I reading these Forums you could think ED Is the worst developer ever. I bought every Module and I‘m Not happy with everything. But I‘m Not disappointed because in Relation I flown 400 Hours with the Hornet for 80 Dollar and it isn‘t still boring. I fly with the Mustang over the PG and every single time I see new Details. I fly approaches on the SC and it feels like I doing the stuff that real pilots doing. (BTW I bought the SC for 9 Dollar because of miles).

Matt is doing the Tutorial-Stuff on youtube. So why some people are so toxic? Name me One Triple AAA Title which isn’t boring after Thousands of Hours?

 

+1

 

There are so many AAA Games which do have tremendous bugs even in stable and release versions.

 

BTW ED is the most customer-listening and care-taking community/publisher i've ever sticked to. I've never had such transparent information with any AAA title. You just can't do it right for every single soul on the planet.

 

Just my experience


Edited by AnimalMother711

Brrrrrrrrrrrt

I'd rather call in a Strike Eagle...

I7 6700K, MSI Z270 Gaming Pro Carbon, 32GB G.Skill Ripjaw V 3200, Inno3D GTX 1080, Samsung 970 Evo, Thrustmaster 1.6000M, TrackIr 5

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This thread escalated quickly.

 

I think we need to appreciate that all of us come from different walks of life, from different countries, from different cultures.

We all have different interests, expectations, set-ups and goals.

 

In short: your mileage may vary!

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No paying customer should be obligated to do QA testing on an entertainment product they've purchased for FUN...

 

:huh:

 

This person was complaining about a bug they found, not doing QA testing...

 

Simply I found this thing, please can you fix it. Nobody could reproduce the issue, and no trackfile was provided. A load of us politely asked this person to do the gruelling and arduous task of left clicking a grand total of 3 times and simply upload a trackfile of the issue so we can do the testing. This person absolutely refused to do so, and when people couldn't reproduce the issue, the guy responded by mouthing off, swearing, giving everyone trying to help both barrels.

 

As for the obligation to test? It's totally up to you. You don't want to do QA testing? Fine. Nobody on here is obligated to do testing.

 

But, if you find a bug, and want it fixed so bad that you'll resort to swearing at and berating everyone trying to help you then you could at least bloody report it properly. It's a track file for god's sake, something that literally takes 5 seconds to do and is probably the least arduous thing to do in bugfixing history.

 

Also if you've got the OB installed (the OB that's designed as a public test build so that ED can do mass testing without spending a fortune on the infrastructure to do it in house) and complain about it being the test build, then get off OB, it's not for you.

 

Seriously this stuff is not that hard (even I get it) and more often than not it's the source of so much unnecessary grief, that could've easily been avoided.

 

 

I get that people have their grievances, and their frustrations - I have them as well, there's a list of things that I personally am not satisfied with. But getting super salty and effing and blinding (not even joking) about it, solves the square root of bugger all and gets us precisely nowhere.

 

If you find a bug, and you want to report it to get it fixed, go about it properly, it's not just out of courtesy or politeness - it's a way more productive way of getting stuff sorted.

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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There is s nice editorial on stormbirds about this whole deal: https://stormbirds.blog/2020/06/10/is-it-time-to-rethink-dcs-worlds-release-structure/amp/

My controls & seat

 

Main controls: , BRD-N v4 Flightstick (Kreml C5 controller), TM Warthog Throttle (Kreml F3 controller), BRD-F2 Restyling Bf-109 Pedals w. damper, TrackIR5, Gametrix KW-908 (integrated into RAV4 seat)

Stick grips:

Thrustmaster Warthog

Thrustmaster Cougar (x2)

Thrustmaster F-16 FLCS

BRD KG13

 

Standby controls:

BRD-M2 Mi-8 Pedals (Ruddermaster controller)

BRD-N v3 Flightstick w. exch. grip upgrade (Kreml C5 controller)

Thrustmaster Cougar Throttle

Pilot seat

 

 

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There is s nice editorial on stormbirds about this whole deal

 

In my opinion, this editorial is kinda superficial and idealistic. It appears that the author doesn't fully understand the complexity of this particular problem (infrequent flyer? multi-sim user? not regular on forums?), and yet he thinks he suddenly found a simple solution.

 

It's good that he draws more attention to this situation tho.

Dima | My DCS uploads

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