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MSFF2 - Centre of axis/Trim

312_JS

By 312_JS
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ViFF

ViFF

Posted
Posted
It's because of the curves. But flying a Spit without them is not feasible.

 

So if I understand you correctly: if you make curvature to pitch, it will also effect the trim tab, requiring much more nose down trim input, and the trim indicator will show incorrect actual physical trim of the elevator.

 

If that is the case, that is definitely not good and obviously incorrect simulation of trim tab.

 

The trim tab should have nothing to do with the curvature.

 

The whole concept of the curvature is to give us humans a customizable interface between our physical stick on the desk to the virtual stick in the sim.

 

I will test this tonight.

 

Cheers

IAF.ViFF

 

http://www.preflight.us

Israel's Combat Flight Sim Community Website

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312_JS

312_JS

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Something like that.

 

Seems to me that it's trying to compensate as if there was no curvature - pushing the stick forward and forward until it reaches some kind of ballance at which point it's just unusable.

 

 

Thank you!

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Talisman_VR

Talisman_VR

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Posted (edited)

Many thanks to the OP for starting this thread.

 

Big thank you to Yo-Yo for engaging with this thread and the golden nugget he gave when he provided the following advice:

"The curvatures in pitch for FF is the worse case in attempts to approach to the full-size stick. Try to use Y-saturation it solves the problem. Or use not deep curvature."

 

Fantastic! As a Microsoft Force Feedback joystick user I have now removed all curvature in pitch (and roll) and have set pitch Y-saturation to 50% (X-saturation for pitch remains at 100%). Bingo! All my DCS aircraft are now much improved :joystick::joystick:

 

My FF tune panel settings are Trimmer force 100 and Shake 50, with the swap axis box checked.

 

My P51 and Mig-15 are also now much improved with these new settings for force feedback.

 

Yo-Yo, thank you!

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman


Edited by 56RAF_Talisman

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312_JS

312_JS

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So if I understand you correctly: if you make curvature to pitch, it will also effect the trim tab, requiring much more nose down trim input, and the trim indicator will show incorrect actual physical trim of the elevator.

 

If that is the case, that is definitely not good and obviously incorrect simulation of trim tab.

 

The trim tab should have nothing to do with the curvature.

 

The whole concept of the curvature is to give us humans a customizable interface between our physical stick on the desk to the virtual stick in the sim.

 

I will test this tonight.

 

Cheers

Any luck ViFF?

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312_JS

312_JS

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Many thanks to the OP for starting this thread.

 

Big thank you to Yo-Yo for engaging with this thread and the golden nugget he gave when he provided the following advice:

"The curvatures in pitch for FF is the worse case in attempts to approach to the full-size stick. Try to use Y-saturation it solves the problem. Or use not deep curvature."

 

Fantastic! As a Microsoft Force Feedback joystick user I have now removed all curvature in pitch (and roll) and have set pitch Y-saturation to 50% (X-saturation for pitch remains at 100%). Bingo! All my DCS aircraft are now much improved :joystick::joystick:

 

My FF tune panel settings are Trimmer force 100 and Shake 50, with the swap axis box checked.

 

My P51 and Mig-15 are also now much improved with these new settings for force feedback.

 

Yo-Yo, thank you!

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

So you are not bothered by the halfed range of the axis? Remember me next time you are not able to outturn a Dora. :)

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312_JS

312_JS

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I think we managed to narrow the issue down to the fact, that when you use a curve, the sim is still trying to offset the elevator just as it there wasn't a curve. The more curvature - the bigger the issue.

 

Please don't keep telling me I should fly without curves or limit my saturation, that's just not solving the issue and there is no reason what so ever to be forced to use linear curves for a single aircraft.


Edited by 312_JS
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312_JS

312_JS

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Could you at least make it an option (to offset the centre when using FF) in the Special Settings section?

It's quite arrogant to claim we are not supposed to use curves and that's that, especially when Spitfire is the only plane that has this "feature".

Thanks a lot for your consideration.

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Scoobyon

Scoobyon

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Im getting the same problem with a warthog. Im not sure why as it has been fine until recently but my plane has itself pitching up from the moment I spawn in. nothing to do with trim or rudder. Im also getting right roll in the 109

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Minor Lancaster Fanboy

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Terry Dactil

Terry Dactil

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Perhaps this little utility program may help.

t certainly solved joystick problems in the past for me.

Before you worry about DCS curves and saturation settings, check the first link in the chain which is the the input values coming from the joystick.

I have seen errors in the upper or lower limits which then cause an incorrect center valuu, which may be the case here.

Get DIView.exe and you can accurately adjust the joystick output and remove any errors.

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312_JS

312_JS

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A nice video Phil just made illustrating why curves are necessary (MSFF2 is much shorter than Spitfire's control column) and saturation is not the way to go (it limits your range). Is it really such a huge task to add an option "to have the elevator axis centred with FF joysticks" into the Special option menu?
 

 

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Gromit (LO-L)

Gromit (LO-L)

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Has anyone come up with a solution to this issue yet?

Messing with saturation does not work.

I have tried the TF51 and that works fine with FFB activated as does the frogfoot, it's only the Spitfire that is affected?

 

I bought the Spit, Normandy and Channel maps and the spit is unusable with this problem, so can I exchange the Spit for the P51D, at least then I can use what I paid for, this mess is unacceptable as there is no disclaimer saying the Spit does not work with FFB.

 

 


Edited by Gromit (LO-L)
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hazzer

hazzer

Posted
Posted

Very dissapointed to see so many ffb related issues posted on the forum (all about the same subject relating to trimming and the way the ffb interacts) with no intention from the devs to look at or fix the issue. 

RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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312_JS

312_JS

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On 6/8/2021 at 9:32 PM, Gromit (LO-L) said:

Has anyone come up with a solution to this issue yet?

Messing with saturation does not work.

I have tried the TF51 and that works fine with FFB activated as does the frogfoot, it's only the Spitfire that is affected?

 

I bought the Spit, Normandy and Channel maps and the spit is unusable with this problem, so can I exchange the Spit for the P51D, at least then I can use what I paid for, this mess is unacceptable as there is no disclaimer saying the Spit does not work with FFB.

 

 

 

No solution yet. It's as intended according to Yo-Yo. I know of the Spitfire, P47 and Mosquito being affected.

@Yo-Yo, you guys should decide if you want to force us to buy a real life length stick, so that we don't have to use the curves, or use regular joystics and add a Special Menu setting to turn off the axis offset/emulate a short stick. I'm sure you'd agree that these Special Menu settings are trivial to implement.

Just last night my friend wasn't able to fly the Mosquito with us, because he only owns the MSFF2 and he either has to not use curves, which makes it silly to fly with a short stick, or not be able to trim the aircraft. Is it really working as intended?

Yo-Yo's solution of 50% saturation (which obviously halves your max elevator deflection) is definitely not a good way of solving the issue. It may be fine if you are fast, since max deflection would give you black out anyway, but when you slow down, it's an unreasonable handicap for what has a trivial solution.


Edited by 312_JS
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Wiggy

Wiggy

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Finally got round to making a full length stick for my MSFFB2 to help fix this issue. 
Still needs 15-20 curve on the pitch axis or it’s insanely sensitive, which was a bit disappointing.
Anyway this also means the trimming offset issue is still there. 
Seems to me the simulated air-flow over the elevator isn’t quite right, like it’s just as easy to deflect the elevator at 250 mph as it is stationary on the ground. 
 

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MAXsenna

MAXsenna

Posted
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On 12/18/2021 at 6:36 PM, Wiggy said:

Finally got round to making a full length stick for my MSFFB2 to help fix this issue. 
Still needs 15-20 curve on the pitch axis or it’s insanely sensitive, which was a bit disappointing.
Anyway this also means the trimming offset issue is still there. 
Seems to me the simulated air-flow over the elevator isn’t quite right, like it’s just as easy to deflect the elevator at 250 mph as it is stationary on the ground. 
 

What did you do to solve the now potentially unnatural lengthy throw/deflection of the stick? 

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Wiggy

Wiggy

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Posted (edited)
On 1/24/2022 at 3:39 PM, MAXsenna said:

What did you do to solve the now potentially unnatural lengthy throw/deflection of the stick? 

Now I have got used to it it feels much more natural. The longer throw is excellent. Would highly recommend it. 


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MAXsenna

MAXsenna

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15 minutes ago, Wiggy said:

Once I got used to it it feels much more natural. The longer throw is excellent. Would highly recommend it. 

Huh, that's interesting. How long is the stick then?

I extended my Warthog with 40cm, and without tweaking, the top would travel 50cm in any direction. 

I'm asking because I want to extend my FFB2 too.

Cheers! 

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