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[Open discussion] Should we all move to the stable?


astazou

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Hello all,

 

After a deep debate with my friends yesterday about the question: should we move to the stable? I decided to take my keyboard to share with everyone what we think with my friends

 

Why?

In every squadrons the question has very probably been debated many times, the bugs are frustrating pilots but when they consider this option of moving, they are stopped by understandable reasons:

- there are more servers on the OB

- many of the popular servers are on the OB

- events are on the OB

- new features are teased on OB

So when pilots have plans to fly on public MP servers, and/or want to participate to events, they have no choice to use the OB. Debates very often finish here, because every others are on the OB so we follow...

 

That's why I'm here now, if we, most of us, are already thinking about moving their squadron to the stable but being scared to be "alone", then we should do it together and accept to stay on the stable, the other squadrons and most of servers will follow

 

Maybe we could even suggest to ED to keep the communication (trailer and other annoucements) for the stable instead of the OB?

It will not block the contributors to fly on the OB to do reporting

 

OB should stay for people who want to contribute to DCS

Stable should be the place to fly and do events, be wise and patient, haste leads to disappointment

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The point is, in OB when a broken patch is released, it is 3 seconds time to type "dcs updater.exe update 2.5.6.xxxx" and you are good to go in any release you want. Basically it is the same if you will be in OB or Stable.

 

In 132nd we basically never update immediately but wait a few days to see if the update is good or not and then update.

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I think that the beta needs to be take off the main website page and put into the forums as a link so that people are not just clicking it to get all the latest shinny stuff without first seeing and understanding what it is they are letting themselves in for.

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The actual question should be: Should all MP servers be restricted to Stable?

In a way, yes, but the tests are also very important on the multiplayer servers, many bugs are possible only in MP. Blade's idea is pretty good, if the OB access is "harder", only motivated people with some knowledges will find it

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Problem is, ED doesn't test, as we can see, so if we all move to stable, who will test. :)

 

That said in all seriousness, I think stable isn't the solution because ED doesn't release new features to stable, it took 6 months to go from 2.5.5 to 2.5.6. No one is going to wait 6 months to fly their newly purchased Jf17 for example. Or take now, I won't be able to fly p47 or channel map.

 

ED created a closed beta tester group.

 

1. it needs to be expanded to include more testers, on a per module basis

2. ED needs a systematic approach to deploys and determining what is tested and ready vs. what is not

3. Builds need to go through a step by step testing procedure prior to being released to public

 

Most the issue is ED internal processes are clearly broken. They blame the code base (then fix it). But still charge a premium price.

 

If I owned ED I'd definitely have a team writing code for the future, if I wanted to have a future.

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I think many, including the guy's I fly with would like it to be a bit more tested before release. whether that's, more coded test tools and or testers etc.

 

We all want to help find the HARD to find beta bugs etc. Not the in your face bugs.;)

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OB testers really helps ED out, so my answer is only move to stable branch if you have no interest helping ED develop DCS.

Big servers need to move on stable, events also

 

I personnaly do bug reporting, and I will continue because I want to contribute and help dev' team to make DCS better, but 95% of people on the OB don't do it and stay on the OB for the reasons I mentionned in my first post. That's why I'm opening this discussion, to see if people are ready to move their squadron and/or server to the stable

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- My Discord bot:
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If you want to thank me buying a coffee☕/beer🍺, feel free:
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I think that the beta needs to be take off the main website page and put into the forums as a link so that people are not just clicking it to get all the latest shinny stuff without first seeing and understanding what it is they are letting themselves in for.

 

This suggestion is actually quite good. Stable on the front page, but if you are happy to take part in bug hunting, then deeper in the forums you can find the OB, with all relevant warnings and info.

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I played an online game for 10 yrs before coming to DCS, admittedly it was a different genre. Their system was different in that after OB had been tested and found to be relatively bug free and was released the OB server was shut down to work on the next update and the update was then released to "Stable". I often took part in OB and it seemed to me that the majority of ppl there were there to actually test it.

One advantage of this system was an undivided community.

 

Tbh though I'm not sure how it could be implemented here or even if it would work.

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We've been there before many times, discussing and suggesting the very same things after each borked update. Nothing has changed.

 

And unless ED expand their CBT team and give them more time to properly test each OB build (by moving away from their rushed weekly releases), nothing will change.

 

You can't reason with all the people who want EA modules and the latest features right here and now. They can whine & complain, they can totally agree with you, but most of them will still stay on Beta.

 

Even if you'll manage to steer most users away from the Open Beta, less testers will result in less polished and less frequent Stable updates.

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OB should stay for people who want to contribute to DCS

Stable should be the place to fly and do events, be wise and patient, haste leads to disappointment

 

I think that the beta needs to be take off the main website page and put into the forums as a link so that people are not just clicking it to get all the latest shinny stuff without first seeing and understanding what it is they are letting themselves in for.

 

Agree!

 

The actual question should be: Should all MP servers be restricted to Stable?

 

Yes to that question.

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The actual question should be: Should all MP servers be restricted to Stable?

 

No, because who's gonna hunt for MP bugs then?

ED's own closed beta team? I'm begging you. Most likely it'll be the Stable users a few months later.

And then what? Merging MP fixes from Stable with OB code (which could be different by then, with new features and more bugs)? Not in this (DCS) World :D


Edited by Minsky

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There should be no 2 open versions of the sim imho. It's not needed, ED just have to stop rushing to release and do more polishing and testing and all should be fine. In case broken upgrade got pushed somehow, just downgrade to previous patch.

 

Face it, no one will stay in stable when it is months behind with the updates and it is still cluttered with bugs more or less the same as OB. Just focus more on fixing stuff, testing and polishing, if this is not done then even open alpha beta gama delta etc.. wont make much difference.

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  • ED Team

We can not force people to play on one build or another, it is up to the individual.

 

Personally I wish server admins used stable version over open beta which is a public test build, but again, this is the choice of the server admin.

 

thanks

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Events and such should be done on stable. Youtube content creators should use stable.

 

But there is the problem, how to market new things when they appear in open beta?

Well, the community is problem that wants "latest bling bling". While focus should be in stable so that is promoted. And leave open beta for more of a "inner silent circle".

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ED acknowledged they messed up yesterday by pushing an update that was build the night before without testing before release (there wasn't enough time, testers are not all in house so not always available and 3rd party didn't even have this build to test their module on).

 

If they just stop doing this and delay the patch we wouldn't be here complaining and open beta could still be the preferred platform to fly on.

 

I understand the late night build, I understand that the internal test team is small, I understand they rely on external testers in closed beta's and that they are not always avilible. But please use them and just don't release if not ready!

 

On the other hand (many of) the community should be more patience. Stuff happens in R&D and stuff get delayed. Deal with it.

 

Also, stop this weekly update nonsense. It is not doing anyone any good. Release when ready.

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Yes the only way is to get rid of the two releases: Stable and Open Beta. Make it one release, and make open beta, closed beta. Do quarterly updates that ARE TESTED.

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I think that all the main events and server should be on stable...

Openbeta was born to help squashing bugs, but it became the new toys store for kids. Nothing wrong with this...all of us like the new toys...but then we get no guarantee that all will be working as intended.

So openbeta can be used for testing and for playing with new features and modules...but then people should not complain this way as it is...well a beta....

Also I think that the 6 months between 2.5.5 and 2.5.6 on release are an exception for the complexity of that change...before usually 1 or 1 and half month was the timing between updates and I guess will be more like that in the next future

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A practical solution would be to push new modules to Stable, as well to OB, so people is not *forced* to stay on OB to have them.

Later, use OB to try new minor features, changes, etc. so using OB to contribuiting to testing would really be opt-in only.

Other companies are doing this way.

 

 

 

My 2 cents.

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But there is the problem, how to market new things when they appear in open beta?

 

 

Errr... you market them in Stable when they are released to stable and become usable,

What good is it to market something and then that person that watched that youtube guide comes to try it and realizes its not really working as it should, that only gives bad effect to the product.

 

 

Bottom line is if you want MP servers to switch to stable stop playing beta, when they realize stable servers are full and OB servers are empty they will switch.

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Think about how badly that would effect a third party like Deka. It took half a year for their working product to be released in Stable.

 

And unfortunately, ED isn't sophisticated enough to run Parallel builds. They can't Merge them back down. So Stable Can't be half updated with just the working bits. It's all or nothing the way they are running their version control right now.

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Think about how badly that would effect a third party like Deka. It took half a year for their working product to be released in Stable.

 

It may work other way... Deka and ED could have been motivated to release JF-17 and other new modules in stable much sooner, if they could not depend on sales thanks to users running open beta.

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Just a different POV on the topic:

Currently open beta allows for a faster feedback loop in terms of bug detection. It is apparent that many bugs are not found in internal or closed testing therefore they often rely on the community on finding the important bugs.

 

If everything goes to stable most of this is cut off and the feedback loop is increased. For a developer it's much easier to fix a problem that he might have caused a week ago than something that he has done a month or months ago.

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