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[Open discussion] Should we all move to the stable?


astazou

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I think bugs would be detected either, these bugs in OB atm are something that is hard to miss, the problem with it now is that so many play it then you get many that cant understand what OB is there for and start spamming forum with hate and blame rather then with constructive bug reports.

 

 

I'm not an aviation expert, that is the reason I come to these forums to learn something or to ask a question for something I cant figure out myself. But then I see these hate and blame posts about a version that is in Beta Test state...

 

 

I didn't find much bug reports from stable version, only those reports that are there cause module is not completed so they appear as bugs. But then again I'm no expert so I don't really know.

 

 

In my opinion the best solution is for everyone to move to stable, then you you complain about those bugs in stable all you like.

Stable shouldn't have bugs.

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[...]

I didn't find much bug reports from stable version, only those reports that are there cause module is not completed so they appear as bugs. But then again I'm no expert so I don't really know.

 

In my opinion the best solution is for everyone to move to stable, then you you complain about those bugs in stable all you like.

Stable shouldn't have bugs.

 

You are right in that stable works way better than open beta. It's not good enough though. There are still stupid bugs, that should not be there, so people still perceive it as "open beta, but older".

 

I'm on stable since i started with DCS and i never had a game-breaking bug on stable. It's obviously the better experience. However there some stupid issues and the slower release pace means that you're stuck with this annoyances for a month or more.

I think, if stable would get a little bit more attention (f.e. hotfixes for issues that slipped through, without waiting for the whole beta/stable cycle again), it would be easier to convince people to just stick with stable.

 

Fun fact: On stable you get the same amount of updates per set time. ;)

I find it ridiculous, that people who are not interested in beta-testing or public MP, still prefer open beta suffering to just waiting a month... (again different story for those that want to play public multiplayer...)

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Serious question - does ED promote content sales of modules that are only available in OB? Is the P47 and Channel Map only currently in OB? If so, then ED needs to stop heavily promoting content that is only available in the beta. Then, and only then, would stable become the go-to version. But I'm assuming they can't financially afford to do that.

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Serious question - does ED promote content sales of modules that are only available in OB?

Well they heavily promote modules, that are only on OB and they have official "launch trailers" for modules that are only on OB.

 

Then, and only then, would stable become the go-to version. But I'm assuming they can't financially afford to do that.

I assume they very well could. See, ED - according to Nick Grey - has made a profit every year since it's formation and waiting for modules to hit stable before starting the marketing would only delay a small part of the cash flow for a month or two.

 

Honestly, stop taking ED's finances into account. They are even side-developing a AAA game (MAC) with the revenue they get from the sims. Don't get me wrong; that's good for them. I'm just tired of hearing that unfounded narrative of flightsims being such a niche within a niche and developers having to rely on user's charity...


Edited by twistking
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Honestly, stop taking ED's finances into account. They are even side-developing a AAA game (MAC) with the revenue they get from the sims. Don't get me wrong; that's good for them. I'm just tired of hearing that unfounded narrative of flightsims being such a niche within a niche and developers having to rely on user's charity...

 

It's the ED defenders who are promoting that charity.

 

I assume they very well could. See, ED - according to Nick Grey - has made a profit every year since it's formation and waiting for modules to hit stable before starting the marketing would only delay parts of the cash flow for a month or two.

 

Then there's no reason why they couldn't/shouldn't do what GunSlingerAUS suggested.

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Honestly, stop taking ED's finances into account. They are even side-developing a AAA game (MAC) with the revenue they get from the sims. Don't get me wrong; that's good for them. I'm just tired of hearing that unfounded narrative of flightsims being such a niche within a niche and developers having to rely on user's charity...

It's the ED defenders who are promoting that charity.

Wait, does that make me an... ED attacker?

I assume they very well could. See, ED - according to Nick Grey - has made a profit every year since it's formation and waiting for modules to hit stable before starting the marketing would only delay a small part of the cash flow for a month or two.

[...]Then there's no reason why they couldn't/shouldn't do what GunSlingerAUS suggested.

Yes, I agree, that ED should change their marketing towards what's available on stable and make an effort to better distinguish OB from the release version in their communication.

That should help with the backlash they often get from the reddit crowd of furious impatience. However they should also improve on how they handle the stable built: It's the better experience, but it still has problems sometimes and often feels like an afterthought, because while bugs are fewer, those that are remain for much, much longer; Sometimes many month... So stable would definitely need a bit more care...


Edited by twistking
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Well they heavily promote modules, that are only on OB and they have official "launch trailers" for modules that are only on OB.

 

 

I assume they very well could. See, ED - according to Nick Grey - has made a profit every year since it's formation and waiting for modules to hit stable before starting the marketing would only delay a small part of the cash flow for a month or two.

 

Honestly, stop taking ED's finances into account. They are even side-developing a AAA game (MAC) with the revenue they get from the sims. Don't get me wrong; that's good for them. I'm just tired of hearing that unfounded narrative of flightsims being such a niche within a niche and developers having to rely on user's charity...

 

I'm envious of your optimism if you think MAC is more than a monthly brainstorming session, or what Google calls a Blue Sky meeting.

 

As for funding, Mr Grey has said several times that EA is what keeps DCS profitable (which is a woeful place to be in when it comes to software development). And if EA continues to equal OB, we can't expect that version to stop getting 100% of the promotion, and thus be the version that players think is the norm. Adhering to the old definition of a game beta as you do totally ignores what has happened in the world of gaming software over the last five years. DCS is far from being the only title that lives under the perpetual beta banner; the issue is that it's one of the buggiest.


Edited by GunSlingerAUS

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The biggest problem was ED pushing OpenBeta onto Steam imo.

 

 

Nothing against the Steam users, aside from there was a bit less rage when OB was non-Steam users, but it's resulted in a large portion of people shifting to OB as their default branch for the new toys, and therefore pushing the obvious moves of server owners to OB.

 

 

I'd be quite interested to know how the %'s stack up on people using OB vs Stable tbh.

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I'm envious of your optimism if you think MAC is more than a monthly brainstorming session, or what Google calls a Blue Sky meeting.

:music_whistling:

Adhering to the old definition of a game beta as you do totally ignores what has happened in the world of gaming software over the last five years. DCS is far from being the only title that lives under the perpetual beta banner; the issue is that it's one of the buggiest.

Are we talking past each other? I think i agree with you...

 

All i'm saying is that focusing marketing on "stable" (whatever that means) branch and paying more attention to said branch, will make for a better user experience with less frustration. I do not see, how that would jeopardize cash flow, as we are talking only about a month or two of difference between stable (whatever that means) and open beta (whatever that means) releases.

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People who use Open Beta should realize...it will HAVE BUGS and as they could help in reporting any problems they find without going getting angry etc.

 

 

 

Stable too will have some bugs, as always...but at least, less than the OB. They too can report it.

 

 

 

But so far, there isn't any game out there that is bug free. Even AAA brands have bugs and sometimes gamebreaking bugs.

 

 

I don't use OB. But even If I do find problem on Stable, if reportable and reproducible, I'll do that.

 

 

 

 

I know majority go for OB, coz modules release faster over there than stable.

 

 

 

 

The testing team, at least some of them could test how it works on MIN recommended specs PC, or do they test on Min recommended specs?. I know most of the devs got the best PC setup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by jojyrocks
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:

This suggestion is actually quite good. Stable on the front page, but if you are happy to take part in bug hunting, then deeper in the forums you can find the OB, with all relevant warnings and info.

 

Completely pointless. As it is a layer of indirection, that is quickly compromised by some people saying such things as “here is the link and come in the water is fine”...

Which will in effect provide us what we have today. People use beta, because it is the place to get the new shiny toys and because many of the servers run it online.

 

In regular software you would assume at most 10% of your user population would be on beta, and it would be controlled and most likely not in production environments... here we are effectively talking about a production environment (beta is relied on by many users for their fun) that has a significant proportion of users on it.

 

It is a tough problem, a lot of Ed’s revenue is linked to the EA model so you can’t ignore it, I don’t know enough about their revenue stream to say how much impact moving all ea to stable would have, some would be the best guess I could have and likely not a positive ‘some.. clearly in terms of quality it would have to be at least at the level it is now in terms of quality before moving to stable.

 

Then there is the beta test model itself, I did think about posting regarding limiting the number of users on servers or even saying limiting the number of beta test servers etc... but that’s not really practical because of the number of test scenarios or because of the impact on testing which would in turn have an impact on the quality of stable etc...

 

I would seriously consider only at most monthly quality bar meeting releases from beta to stable and frankly 1/4ly might be more realistic based on the status quo and being super up front with it in the discussion of ea products... (with exceptions for genuine game breaking hotfixes) the earliest you will see this on stable is 3 months from release. Because it seems to take at least that long for a product to reach the standards where many users can use it with little support effort.


Edited by speed-of-heat

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Well the main problem of this discussion is that we have 2 versions of the game, dividing the community,

so best idea, in my opinion, is to cancel one of those versions.

 

 

Beta should look something like this; When a stable update is ready to be released, it should be first used as beta test version 7 days prior to release. So Beta should be up only 7 days prior to stable update and that's it.

 

 

 

 

But since beta is up all the time it is not really a beta, the version is pretty much live.

 

Since most people and MP servers run Beta, just close stable and call it a day ;P

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Well the main problem of this discussion is that we have 2 versions of the game, dividing the community,

so best idea, in my opinion, is to cancel one of those versions.

 

 

Beta should look something like this; When a stable update is ready to be released, it should be first used as beta test version 7 days prior to release. So Beta should be up only 7 days prior to stable update and that's it.

 

 

 

 

But since beta is up all the time it is not really a beta, the version is pretty much live.

 

Since most people and MP servers run Beta, just close stable and call it a day ;P

Absolute +1

 

OB hits the street -> Nothing bad after 7 days-> it's stable

Something bad -> bug fix only -> let it perk a few days -> Stable

 

I could be dreaming, I thought it was more like this before. Then a train a bug fix only broke the paradigm.

 

And this whole, I play OB to be part of the QA team. Wah? You've purchased something and given the option you've signed up for perpetual bugs and errors? Why? Hop into OB, test it, report stuff, and hop back to stable. If things go as above, it's only 7 to 14 days behind and carry on. There are some bugs that leave the game unplayable for some, unable to boot, etc. There would be a lot less drama if the alternative was 7 days old and not a big deal.

 

Its because we have "2 different versions" no one wants to go back, its months behind and missing modules.

 

MP used to be this way too. Servers would fire up OB. Oops, game breaker bugs, back to stable this week boys... carry on.

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Well the main problem of this discussion is that we have 2 versions of the game, dividing the community,

so best idea, in my opinion, is to cancel one of those versions.

 

 

Beta should look something like this; When a stable update is ready to be released, it should be first used as beta test version 7 days prior to release. So Beta should be up only 7 days prior to stable update and that's it.

 

 

 

 

But since beta is up all the time it is not really a beta, the version is pretty much live.

 

Since most people and MP servers run Beta, just close stable and call it a day ;P

 

+1

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The stable version should be the primary one. I'm using the stable only.

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Until ED stops putting 100% of its promotional and marketing resources into the OB, then there's no way that stable will become the most used. It's that simple. You can't blame the users for using the version that ED is constantly promoting.

 

And they do this for one reason - money. OB = EA = ongoing financing. It's not a great place to be in, and I hope ED can get themselves out of it, but after 15+ years of loving their products, warts and all, I can't see them changing.

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I think that the beta needs to be take off the main website page and put into the forums as a link so that people are not just clicking it to get all the latest shinny stuff without first seeing and understanding what it is they are letting themselves in for.

 

 

The latest shiny stuff is what computer gaming has always been about. You don't see a lot of people playing Atari 2600.

 

Most DCS fans, by nature, are always gonna go to OB. It doesn't matter how carefully you hide it. If OB is available, it's available--and it's what everyone wants.

 

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It's trick - & something of a vicious circle.

 

OB may bring the cash-flow forward, but it does so at a discounted rate.

The fact that the total revenue stream is reduced by discounting means that they have to make sure it arrives constantly to survive - meaning they have to do E.A. + discounts for E.A. ... which means the total is reduced.

 

If modules weren't available to the public until they were ready for the OB, and were sold at full price, I think they'd make more money in total not less, but they would have to get through the 12 month income hole that would cause in the short term.

 

Changing tack.

 

I guess one solution to the OB whingers would be to have it that each time you download the O.B., you have to click an explicit acknowledgement that what you are downloading is a beta product, and you accept that it may still contain known bugs, and may introduce new bugs.

 

People would still whine, but a simple screenshot would shut them up.

Cheers.

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I guess one solution to the OB whingers would be to have it that each time you download the O.B., you have to click an explicit acknowledgement that what you are downloading is a beta product, and you accept that it may still contain known bugs, and may introduce new bugs.

 

People would still whine, but a simple screenshot would shut them up.

 

That really doesn't work in the real world... look at Windows UAC as an example , people move into auto pilot pretty fast, and just click the "I want to play my game button"... all aided by their online advisors telling them "install the latest beta because its cool" etc... which it is until its not.

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Year ago we had stable updated once per month. Now we will have open beta updated once per month. It looks to me like we are all moving from beta to stable...

 

I am worried now we will have archaic stable version and beta will contain random bugs which won't be fixed for months if they won't affect most popular modules.

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Year ago we had stable updated once per month. Now we will have open beta updated once per month. It looks to me like we are all moving from beta to stable...

 

I am worried now we will have archaic stable version and beta will contain random bugs which won't be fixed for months if they won't affect most popular modules.

 

+1

 

I just mentioned this in patch notes thread. My proposal for release cycle is 2 months for stable, 2 weeks for open beta and critical hotfixes as needed.

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I think there should be one load, but the launcher should have a "one click" option to roll back.. Beta/Stable are just names... there is no such thing as bugless software...

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I am shamed that ignorant people managed to turn open beta to something else than beta by whining.

 

What we needed was nothing more than official hot fixes for small things in a "rolling updates" method. And then guide people how they can keep from updating DCS by clicking "ignore" or simply how to roll back to a previous version without new bugs....

 

Open Beta purpose is testing and feedback gathering. Not entertainment and profiteering. And you need rapid feedback, at least once a week for changes etc.

 

But what can anyone do....

 

Now it is time for ED pull out Open Alpha branch that gets once a week updates. But whiners moves there and same thing repeats...

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Beta/Stable are just names... there is no such thing as bugless software...

 

They are names with purpose and workflow.

 

And while there is no bug free software, there are crash free and feature completed.

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