[REPORTED]Stinger missing straight-flying afterburning target 4/5 tries...

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged

[Yaga]

You see the same behavior with A2A IR missiles in MP against low and slow targets. Mostly against helicopters exactly as it is shown in these examples. You'll get a "good" tone, and yet often it will inexplicably veer away in the last moment before impact.

 

I say a "good" tone because who really knows. There's clearly some IR detection/tracking calculations/coefs that don't seem to represent themselves well through the seeker warbling at you. Feels much more yes/no in terms of seeing the target, where 'yes' isn't a strong indication of ability to track the entire way, despite sounding very solid. Again, specifically problematic against helicopters and others flying similar profiles.

 

I've found I often have better luck just shooting the missile without a lock tone and letting it find them after launch. Perhaps this bypasses the mechanic that causes the strange behavior, but I really can't say for sure.

 

Just my two cents. Perspective here is from only MP only, can't say if SP sees similar. I'd guess this issue is predominately occurring in medium-high unit count MP missions with at least several clients, and effecting more IR missiles shot, from both clients and ai, than just the stinger.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Yaga
typo

[Captain Orso]

In the Harrier forums, an issue was reported that IR missiles were not hitting the Harrier: [NO BUG] IR missiles does not track Harrier anymore. After doing some testing with SA-18 IGLA MANPADs, with Harrier and Hornet as targets, I believe I've proven that the issue is not the Harrier, but the missiles.

 

I setup a mission with 10 IGLA MANPADS building a corridor for the target aircraft to fly through.

 

 

Results against the Hornet:

 

24 SA-18's were fired on 2 passes of the "gauntlet".

 

Of those 24 SA-18's fired, 7 actually hit. The rest flew passed and exploded at their EOL.

 

Of the 7 hits, 6 were from a front or side aspect angle.

 

Of the 17 misses, 7 were from the front or side aspect angle, and 10 were from the rear; most from within about a 30° cone to the rear of the target aircraft.

 

-

 

I flew the target straight and steady at about 350-360 kts at about 2000 feet ASL with the ground at about 65 feet ASL. did no jinking or in any way attempted to avoid missiles.

 

With this kind of easy target, I'm wondering why ANY missiles missed. This should have been a turkey-shoot. I would have expected the only thing distracting an SA-18 would be the fireball of a previous, exploding SAM.

 

Mission, track file, and Tacview linked from above thread:

 

IR-SAM_Test02.miz

IRSAM Test02.trk

Tacview-20200929-032655-DCS-IR-SAM_Test02.txt.zip

--

 

I only added the Harrier and Hornets, because I don't fly any other jets, but mission is attached, and you may add what ever aircraft or SAM you wish to test.

 

I've set the aircraft to IMMORTAL, because I only wanted to record hits, and not damage.

 

I use VARS excellent racing pylons as visual queues for lining up with the center of the gauntlet. I'm not sure if the mission will run without them. If it does, but you still don't want to use the pylons, just follow the wayponits. They will bring your around full circle, so that you can run the gauntlet as often as you wish -- MANPADs will eventually run out of missiles, and I did not arrange for rearming, so you might want to keep that in mind.

 

Once mission has started, simply fly up the middle (follow waypoints and/or racing pylons. Save your track file and/or record Tacview. Review and enjoy.

 

---

 

Edit:

 

Management Summery:

Removed VARS Pylons, because you cannot load the mission without them, even if you just want to remove them, and I had the older version of VARS pylons installed, so even if you installed the VARS pylons from above, you'd still not be able to load the mission.

Replaced them with DCS generic racing pylons.

Attached updated mission 'IR SAM Test03 IGLA.miz'.

Enjoy.

IR SAM Test03 IGLA.miz

Edited September 29, 2020 by Captain Orso

[de.Impact]

Out of 7 MANPADS shooting at a target flying mach 0.7 at 5000ft, 2 shots hit and kill, but 4 miss by a huge offset and dont track at all, one MANPAD even doenst shot at all. 

 

Skill level set to expert, no flares. 

 

The 4 missing shots look like a bug to me. 

 

The missiles mach speed also goes to mach 1.4 on boost, then drops to mach 0.4  1/10second later and accelerates again to higher mach numbers. Doesnt seem very accurate.

 

stinger 2 hit, 4 miss.trk

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by de.Impact
pics

[D4n]

over 1 year and 2 months passed, still is a big issue on @Alpenwolf's Multiplayer server. Please raise priority for this bug. Thank you.

[BIGNEWY]

When we have a fix we will put it in the change log. 

 

thanks

[NineLine]

On 9/29/2020 at 7:19 AM, Captain Orso said:

IR SAM Test03 IGLA.miz 10.27 kB · 26 downloads

So I tried this test, And saw, what I would consider decent results.

I flew as suggested, with suggested speeds, AP on, and let them shoot their shot.

As they were firing at me from the front, I noticed a few more misses, when they were firing on my hind end, not many missiles missed at all.

I do think it is interesting that some did miss as suggested it is an easy shot, so I will check directly with our weapons guys as I heard a comment about this in a YT vid I watched the other day as well. 

I am unlocking this, but if there is any silly suggestion like the previous ones I already cleaned up, I will hand out points, if you have any more suggestions or results to share, than feel free, but be on topic please.

Thanks.

[NineLine]

Further testing and discussion with our weapons guys, and we are really seeing a reasonable about of misses and hits. This is based the above mission. If someone has a track or better mission to highlight what they think might be wrong, then feel free to share it. But please keep all discussion on the issue and the issue only. Thanks.

[D4n]

your weapons guys said hitrate of only 20% is "okay" ? I guess I'll have to drop 4 Stinger soldiers next to each other then, in the future.

[NineLine]

2 hours ago, D4n said:

your weapons guys said hitrate of only 20% is "okay" ? I guess I'll have to drop 4 Stinger soldiers next to each other then, in the future.

Yes, if you want them to be 100%, then add as many as you need.

[Shadow KT]

Too bad odds don't stack that way.
 

On 12/22/2021 at 7:58 PM, NineLine said:

Further testing and discussion with our weapons guys, and we are really seeing a reasonable about of misses and hits. This is based the above mission. If someone has a track or better mission to highlight what they think might be wrong, then feel free to share it. But please keep all discussion on the issue and the issue only. Thanks.

I am honestly curious, could you ask this ? What makes them miss, if the target is non maneuvering, not defending ? I would understand if the missiles fails and doesn't guide at all. But what I am mostly seeing is missiles guiding perfectly fine and at the last moment doing a sharp turn away or missing by centimeters.

I guess the odd miss is reasonable too, but dang....  this many ?

[NineLine]

12 minutes ago, Shadow KT said:

Too bad odds don't stack that way.

Sure they do, the more you add the more likely you will get hit, but at the end of the day its a pretty unrealistic test anyways, how many aircraft are gonna fly non-maneuvering through a gauntlet of manpads?

[Shadow KT]

MANPADS are an ambush weapons, which produces no warning (for most aircraft). Most of the target you will engage won't be expecting a MANPAD, as it is an ambush weapon, or even when defending a front line position, you won't give out much of a warning... But why should they defend, when 7 out of 8 stinger miss. 

I haven't played much CA lately or repeated any of my stinger tests, but I still have the original track and I can re-run it to see if anything has changed. If I remember correctly from that track, out of 11 Stingers only 3 or 4 hit and out of 4 chaparral missiles, none hit.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Shadow KT

[de.Impact]

Im asking myself which military would field a weapon that fails 4 out of 5 easy shots during development trails ?

Czich confirmed himself that there is an error with missile correction, which is shown in the bugreport I posted 1.5 years ago. The flightprofile also doesnt look natural / physically correct.

 

Nobody expects 100% hitrate. But a modern manpad should hit an non maneuvering / non defending target within range pretty reliably. Otherwise nobody would field it. 

 

 

[D4n]

Thank you impact! Now I also remember Chizh's message, thanks!

[D4n]

On 6/21/2020 at 8:37 PM, Chizh said:

We found issue with the hit calculating of missile’s collision with a target in some cases. We will correct it.

When do you plan on correcting it? @Chizh It's currently still  happening most of the time, and currently affects balancing issues on dynamic PvP campaign servers like BlueFlag.