Making DCS more accessible to new players.

[Vertigo72]

Here is the lie you believe: Read>Learn>Do.

Here is the truth of the matter: Read>Do>Learn.

 

Oh the irony! When there are no interactive tutorials covering the things a noob needs to know and you send people to youtube.

 

How about : listen>do>learn..

 

That in a nutshell is what Im advocating for.

[randomTOTEN]

what do you think takes up less space on a persons hard disk.

a .pdf file or a .wav? what about a .miz?

[Vertigo72]

what do you think takes up less space on a persons hard disk.

a .pdf file or a .wav? what about a .miz?

 

ahm... what? Are you suggesting storing a few MB of voice data is a bigger concern than the bandwidth required by watching youtube videos? We are in 2020 right? We dont use floppies or dial up anymore. Who cares?

[randomTOTEN]

that's a fair point.

can you search a .wav or .miz file? If somebody wants to know how a part of a system works, they have to run the entire training mission.

But with a .pdf you can use the search menu to quickly find the info. Granted, the developer has to actually put that info into their manuals, and that appears to be a problem for many modules. But not everything will be in every manual, and yes outside references can be very valuable.

 

 

My point is that TFM has a purpose, it does a great job at it's purpose, and people need to stop trying to replace it with products that are more often inferior. It's still a good thing to read it, and you and your buddies would have a better time if you invested the time to dig through it. Especially when learning a new aircraft.

 

Even right now there is a forum thread up based around your OP. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=280935 A new user doesn't know how to use the radios in the F-14. The same as you. He's trying to do the same thing, contact AWACS and the Carrier. Obviously there's a knowledge gap here. And you're right, the communication chapter is missing from Heatblur's manual.

Edited July 16, 2020 by randomTOTEN

[Vertigo72]

that's a fair point.

can you search a .wav or .miz file? If somebody wants to know how a part of a system works, they have to run the entire training mission.

But with a .pdf you can use the search menu to quickly find the info. Granted, the developer has to actually put that info into their manuals, and that appears to be a problem for many modules. But not everything will be in every manual, and yes outside references can be very valuable.

 

If you have a point there, Im missing it completely.

 

My point is that TFM has a purpose, it does a great job at it's purpose, and people need to stop trying to replace it with products that are more often inferior. It's still a good thing to read it, and you and your buddies would have a better time if you invested the time to dig through it. Especially when learning a new aircraft.

 

Well, first of all, many of the things Ive brought up arent even covered in any manual. Secondly, the whole point of my thread is avoiding people having to do dig though 500 pages to find some rather simple and basic information. Im not against providing reference manuals, Im against seeing those as the first and only solution.

 

Even right now there is a forum thread up based around your OP. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=280935 A new user doesn't know how to use the radios in the F-14. The same as you. He's trying to do the same thing,

 

Yeah how about that hu? But its a "new" user who registered 14 years ago. Not 14 days, but 14 years. Ill let someone else tell him to RTFM. Even if the manual doesnt cover that. Draconus, go for it!

Edited July 16, 2020 by Vertigo72

[MegOhm_SD]

This is all pretty funny. Most new to the sim only need basic mappings to get started.

 

Lets see... pitch, roll, trim, rudder, throttle, flaps, brakes, fire gun, release weapon. Click in cockpit for rest then map more later as you learn and need.

 

There is nothing so hard about mapping. Any gamer that has played a few titles has faced mapping controls before. This is no different. Even my 7 year old Autistic grandson can do it.

 

As for the rest of the arguments, there are plenty of Experienced Users here willing to help “newbies”. All they have to do is ask. This happens everyday.

 

Threads like this turning into hundreds of posts of arguments is just tedious.

Edited July 16, 2020 by MegOhm_SD

[SharpeXB]

Because a newbie doesnt know which of the 4567487 mappings in the list are really important and which ones arent. He doesnt understand 99.9% of them.

The only commands you need to map to your HOTAS are the ones which are described in the manual. Even as a complete novice who knew nothing about aircraft at all, I was able to look at the A-10C manual, look at my stick and throttle. And assign the appropriate commands, listed on the control setup menu under “HOTAS”. I didn’t know what a “China Hat” switch was yet but I would learn that later. It doesn’t take a genius to look at a picture with words on it and map controls.

 

You want ED devoting it’s resources towards players who just aren’t smart enough to be here. Sorry but it’s true. DCS is not a idiot level iPad game. Most players probably have an advanced education and can accomplish tasks like looking at words and picture and understanding them.

Edited July 16, 2020 by SharpeXB

[Flamin_Squirrel]

If you have a point there, Im missing it completely.

 

 

 

Well, first of all, many of the things Ive brought up arent even covered in any manual. Secondly, the whole point of my thread is avoiding people having to do dig though 500 pages to find some rather simple and basic information. Im not against providing reference manuals, Im against seeing those as the first and only solution.

 

 

 

Yeah how about that hu? But its a "new" user who registered 14 years ago. Not 14 days, but 14 years. Ill let someone else tell him to RTFM. Even if the manual doesnt cover that. Draconus, go for it!

 

The manuals and training missions combined are good enough for most new players to find out how to accomplish most tasks at a basic level. It may not cover everything, but you'll learn enough to ask the right questions if you need more information.

 

Your argument that they're totally inadequate because there are some gaps is just ridiculous.

[Vertigo72]

The only commands you need to map to your HOTAS are the ones which are described in the manual.

 

Even when they are not described in any manual. Even when 14 year veterans havent figured out how they need to map comms.

 

Even as a complete novice who knew nothing about aircraft at all, I was able to look at the A-10C manual, look at my stick and throttle. And assign the appropriate commands, listed on the control setup menu under “HOTAS”. I didn’t know what a “China Hat” switch was yet but I would learn that later. It doesn’t take a genius to look at a picture with words on it and map controls.

 

Do you know how many control mappings there are for the F14? Do you know how many of those a noob has ANY chance of understanding what they mean?

 

You want ED devoting it’s resources towards players who just aren’t smart enough to be here.

 

Oh riiiiiight. Nice. You got me. Im too stupid. . I only managed to get one PhD and it doesnt even relate to flying in any way. Good thing ED have a thriving business selling their game to mensa members only. Maybe they should add that to the system requirements, hey?

[randomTOTEN]

It's not even about "smarts." Combat aircraft are detailed and complicated, but you don't need to be a genius to operate them. Unlike Hollywood movies, the truth is that just about anybody can learn these things with enough motivation and commitment. Motivation and commitment that would have them crack a 500 page .pdf. Or not be put off by a complicated control binding UI (which I will argue is the most powerful one ever created for a desk top flight simulator). Or having to google what a TACAN is.

[randomTOTEN]

Yeah how about that hu? But its a "new" user who registered 14 years ago. Not 14 days, but 14 years.

Even when 14 year veterans havent figured out how they need to map comms.

So just because some poor dude has an account for 14 years, you automatically assume he's not a "new user." That he's been flying the Heatblur F-14B for 14 years? Never mind that his account is 2 years older than DCS World itself.

I guess you think DCS:W is the only product that ED has released and supported in 14 years? That the radio system hasn't changed in 14 years? I try and provide an example to support your case and you still shut it down?

[Cake]

 

You want ED devoting it’s resources towards players who just aren’t smart enough to be here. Sorry but it’s true. DCS is not a idiot level iPad game. Most players probably have an advanced education and can accomplish tasks like looking at words and picture and understanding them.

 

Sorry man, but this seems like a narcissistic view. There are plenty of people who flew some of these aircraft in real life who would have trouble setting up their email or an iPad much less DCS for that matter.

 

Where is the simulated realism when the pilot has to do the airplane manufacturers job and someone who flew these airplanes in RL struggles with their set up?

 

Why is it so bad if ED spends a little effort helping people other than YOU, who have it all figured out?

[Vertigo72]

The manuals and training missions combined are good enough for most new players

 

How do you know that? They may have been good enough for the people who ended up sticking around, but thats by definition a self selecting bias. Most people here love to read natops, that tells me something. Do you think that applies to MOST users?

 

But what are you basing your assertion on that they are good enough for "most" ? Not just a majority, or a significant portion, but MOST civilian sim pilots or ww2 pilots, let alone non-pilots.That doesnt match my experience or the people I know that have tried DCS.

 

Your argument that they're totally inadequate because there are some gaps is just ridiculous.

 

Is it? Prove it. Live stream your mom mastering the F14 doing built in tutorials. Let see it.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Vertigo72

[randomTOTEN]

Even when they are not described in any manual.

 

 

I don't even own the F-14 and it took me all of 2 entire minutes to find these images from your manual and post them here.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Is it? Prove it. Live stream your mom mastering the F14 doing built in tutorials. Let see it.

 

It's your assertion that the training resources are inadequate for getting started, so the burden of proof is on you.

 

Also, you say mastering now, when previously you said getting started.

 

Anyway, I'm out. You've got nothing productive to say so as far as I'm concerned you're just trolling.

[SharpeXB]

Even when they are not described in any manual. Even when 14 year veterans havent figured out how they need to map comms.

Just because someone has an old forum account doesn’t mean they have any experience here. Clearly that person doesn’t. His question was answered easily enough on the forum. Most modules have a description of this and it’s almost self explanatory.

 

Oh riiiiiight. Nice. You got me. Im too stupid. . I only managed to get one PhD and it doesnt even relate to flying in any way.

But I guess your degree didn’t involve studying or reading anything huh? :cry:

[Vertigo72]

It's your assertion that the training resources are inadequate for getting started, so the burden of proof is on you.

.

 

Didnt I already meet that burden by stating they where inadequate for me? As well as for everyone I know that has tried DCS? As well as apparently for 14 year veterans that may really be noobs?

 

Also, you say mastering now, when previously you said getting started.

 

Fair point. There is no good definition that distinguishes one from another, but lets see her get to the point where she could complete any downloadable campaign or achieve anything on any MP server.

[SharpeXB]

There are plenty of people who flew some of these aircraft in real life who would have trouble setting up their email or an iPad much less DCS for that matter.

There’s so much help for people in DCS that’s already in the game and the community. If this isn’t enough, well then sorry but this is not for them. You can’t help people who won’t help themselves or even try.

[MegOhm_SD]

@Vertigo. Please put your Doctorate to good use and write a “Hot to Map Controls, Including Comms” Guide for DCS.

 

Should be a quick and easy task for an educated individual of your level of intelligence.

Edited July 16, 2020 by MegOhm_SD

[SharpeXB]

Now you’re contradicting yourself. First this wasn’t about you it was about some “other people”

 

Have you still not figured out Im not asking this for *me* ?

 

But now it’s you that apparently can’t read or understand pictures.

 

Didnt I already meet that burden by stating they where inadequate for me?

 

A PhD huh? :music_whistling: In what? Complaining? :lol:

[Cake]

There’s so much help for people in DCS that’s already in the game and the community. If this isn’t enough, well then sorry but this is not for them. You can’t help people who won’t help themselves or even try.

 

I agree there is plenty of help, but it could be way better organized. I mean, most of it depends on the community. We’re collectively a bunch of unpaid ED customer support personnel. :helpsmilie::pilotfly:

 

Also, we have so many “help” threads here in the forums with 100s of pages on nonsense to weed through for a single nugget or two of knowledge. This could be much better.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

This could be much better.

 

It could be. A shame that Vertigo72 has drowned out this valid point by arguing for 18 pages that 'better' means 'perfect' and 'getting started' means 'able to do everything'.

[SharpeXB]

I agree there is plenty of help, but it could be way better organized.

You really can get into this with just the manual and in-game tutorials. Sure combining those with other sources is a help. But the manual is your primary guide to everything. And it’s quicker to access than a video or mission in the game. You can’t fast forward or scroll to some certain part of a mission or video but you can instantly flip pages in a manual. You can easily have it as a reference when learning something.

The important thing is to be active about studying and not passive. Passively watching a video won’t stick with me. It’s a help to watch but really learning something involves active repetition. Open the manual and as you read about something actively use it in the aircraft. You can’t do that as easily with any other media.

[Vertigo72]

Now you’re contradicting yourself. First this wasn’t about you it was about some “other people”

But now it’s you that apparently can’t read or understand pictures.

 

Its not very complicated. I did not post this asking for help for me; I provided my experience hoping it could spark a meaningful discussion on how to improve DCS for every newbie especially those with a similar background - which I reckon is the vast majority of DCS noobs. Maybe Im unique in my inability to learn based on the tools I was offered, or but I kinda doubt that.

[SharpeXB]

Maybe Im unique in my inability to learn based on the tools I was offered, or but I kinda doubt that.

No I think you are certainly unique... I’ve never seen anyone else complain so much. Most people, even if they get stuck on something, can just ask a simple question here or Google it and get on with their life instead of going on for dozens of pages.

“The tools you were offered“ include:

- A free demo version of the game

- A manual

- Community made user guides

- Interactive tutorial missions

- Video tutorials

- The knowledge of literally every subject imaginable at your fingertips via Google

- This forum

 

You certainly do have a unique inability to learn.