Making DCS more accessible to new players.

[SharpeXB]

@Pikey

Imagine you're learning to drive. Would you rather go to a driving school that gives you all the materials, provides you with an instructor and guides you through the process or one where they give you your car's manual and say you can find everything else on the internet?

If you buy a racing sim. It’s does not come with a “driving school” that teaches you. You can of course go find this type of instruction on YouTube. It’s the same here. No sim game I’m aware of has that high level of instruction. Yes some of the civy flight sims have some silly training flights but they’re not very good.

 

And for the 100th time... DCS does teach you through interactive training missions, specific handling of these aircraft like how to take off and land etc.

[randomTOTEN]

Stop derailing this thread. If you are not interested in discussing how DCS could be improved for new users then DONT.

 

I also think it's important to separate the issues with the training missions and documentation from Vertigo72's spurious, "I want a virtual buddy to hold my hand so I don't have to read the manual." You've been debunked multiple times, RTFM as a bare minimum.

 

Pikey made a very good post about the history, and looking back it seems one of the issues isn't that DCS training could be improved, but instead that DCS training has been degraded.

 

Looking back on the training missions and manuals. It's obvious that some content is being cut. As I demonstrated in my investigations of the manuals, many of them lack the important communication chapter that describes how radios work in DCS. There was much more in regards to flight theory in the earlier manuals.

 

The Ka-50 even includes a printed suggested set of bindings for the X52 HOTAS system.

 

So I wanted to reference the old Ka-50 training videos by Wags. These have since been replaced by "interactive" missions to the A-10C (and now all modules) standards.

 

But a lot of content was cut, content that people like Vertigo would have greatly appreciated.

The old videos numbered 22 in total: Here is an HD playlist,

 

You don't even get to the Cold Start until video #4. There are 3 videos before it, encompassing Introduction, Cockpit Orientation, and to Vertigo's satisfaction, a 19 minute video describing how radio and ground communication work in DCS. Before you even try to start the engine.

 

This is substantially more content compared to the "new" interactive missions.. in which the first one is titled "Aircraft Start-up." So while he sees lacking content and the need for a virtual buddy, what we should be seeing is the content which should already be there but isn't.

 

Likewise, many consider the AV8B-NA's training as comprehensive, but it's also possible that always was the standard, and has since been relaxed to the point of frustration for new users.

 

Us old Kamov and Warthog drivers might not see the problem here, because we look at something like the F-14 and care about the type conversion, but not so much the basics. This is a good point to not leave that aspect of the simulation behind as we move to the newest and shiniest jet.

 

Perhaps people like Vertigo would have a better experience with the interactive (or hell not interactive) missions and TFM if they were brought back to standard, instead of a redundant UI overhaul so they can get their hand held.

Edited July 20, 2020 by randomTOTEN
tone

[draconus]

In every normal game, even more complex ones (with lots of controls), you can just install it, fire it up and start playing. Not the case with DCS.

 

Why not? 1 minute after start, 3 clicks and you're flying. There are many default profiles for popular control sticks and throttles so they are binded at the start.

[Vertigo72]

Now I'll touch on the differences between US Navy and US Air Force training, as this is germane to the subject.

 

Military training programs are not designed to attract and motivate people or keep paying customers entertained. Quite the opposite, they are selection programs, designed to separate the chaff from the wheat and deter anyone but the best.

 

DCS training ought to have the exact opposite goal. Rather than selecting only the "best and brightest" and ensuring only the most motivated customer persist, it ought to attract and retain as many as possible. As someone else put it, the training is an integral part of the experience and should be a big part of the attraction rather than a deterrent. It could be a huge selling point. It certainly worked for ms sims.

 

But plenty of posters here seem to have a different opinion and appear to relish the fact that DCS' often unnecessarily steep learning curve and "DYOR, use google and RTFM" approach to training self selects and greatly contributes to it being far more niche than it would otherwise be. I dont know, its almost as if they think having mastered DCS gives them some status, and making DCS similarly accessible as other games would take that away from them.

 

Finally, I would be remiss if I didn't give Baltic Dragon some serious credit for his training missions. The AV-8B missions are all outstanding, and they are the closest thing I've seen to the FS9 lessons I alluded to earlier. You can go through the full walkthrough and still choose abbreviated missions that train the same things (allowing you to practice without the voice overs), or allow you to practice the same things in more challenging environments.

 

I heard that several times, I dont have the harrier, but Ill believe it. Just a shame similar training isnt available to the majority of new players who decided a harrier may not be the best trainer plane. Even more a shame that more basic training of concepts and skills that every DCS pilot has to master, isnt available to anyone.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Someone supports your view, and you still manage to come across as if you're disagreeing with them. Sums up your why you're failing to persuade people quite nicely I'd say.

[Vertigo72]

It's fairly frustrating to see folks with no idea about where the game is going, how it works, its technical limitations, its development course over the last ten years, come in, blame the game, and suggest enhancements without thinking through any of what they say. I suppose not everyone has been a part of this journey.

 

Right. Someone relatively new to the game is in no position to have an opinion about what its like as a new player or have an opinion on how his experience could have been improved. Sound logic there. Maybe we should ask devs what its like as a new player?

 

There can be no "common tutorials" A WW2 plane and a Russian non clickable FC3 jet from ten years hence, is no way to onbboard new players. This is recognised.

 

Its less than ideal. It might actually be better than the onboarding experience with a tomcat.

 

None of the advanced topics of air combat that the OP is talking about seem to refer to the TF-51. In fact, I doubt people interested in Jets will even see TF-51 before jumping in.

 

Indeed. Especially when there are no Tf51 tutorials that will teach you anything relevant to more advanced modules.

 

I just tried the very first TF-51 training mission, the engine start procedure, and the first thing it tells me is raising the flap lever. A lever I can not even see because its outside my view without trackir. A lever I can not see with track ir or after if I figured out how to pan the view, because the pilot body hides it. Does it teach me how to pan the view ? No. How to hide the pilot body, or how to adjust my view laterally? No. And by the time I realized I cant see it, the text which contained a keyboard short cut alternative has disappeared. Im already stuck. 20 seconds after starting the first tutorial in the simplest plane I may have to use google. Brilliant. Thats certainly not going to deter any potential F18 buyers.

 

How frigging hard do you think it is to improve this? What radical changes does it require to the game engine to make this better? Why do you people insist on repeating over and over that improving the onboarding experience is both unnecessary and somehow impossible when it so blatantly isnt?

 

But because the existing TF51 tutorials are so completely useless to aspiring jet pilots, people like me buy the F14 and jump in that and have an even worse onboarding experience, as HB understandably dont see it as their job to teach new players common DCS concepts, let alone combat basics and do it over and over again with every module they release.

 

It shouldnt have to be like this. Flawed as the TF51 might be as a common trainer, it can still be used to teach anything from using and configuring controls, to radio comms, F10 maps, kneeboards, exploring features like autostart, time acceleration, ie basic game orientation. It could even be used as a "less than ideal" acro / formation /BFM trainer. Would BFM training be awkward without even a gunsight? Yup. But its better than having no such training missions at all.

 

Similarly the Su25, while far from ideal, can be used to train some modern warfare basics that no other module is going to teach you.

 

Lastly, and most importantly, there are better solutions. And some are pretty obvious once you stop yelling newbies dont understand and DCS training is how it is, must be and always will be because reasons. There are appropriate trainers in the DCS universe, and they arent even put to good use as trainers. Its not rocket science. You can supply a new player with an F5 or L-39 and provide basic tutorials based on those planes. There isnt even a law that says you cant charge money for that, or bundle them with more advanced modules or provide them for free but limit their access to only training missions with only simulated weapons or no weapons at all. Buy a tomcat or F16 or F18 or Mirage, and included is a few dozen basic tutorials and training mission based on the F5 or C-101, teaching new players common things every DCS player has to know or learn. Buy a P47 or Spitfire or mustang or 109 or 190 and included are a few dozen basic tutorials based on the Yak-52 or TF-51. Tutorials you can skip if you dont need them, or if you prefer learning from manuals and youtube, but that are there for everyone else.

 

Bottom line. It's not the right time. Post MAC release there will be a feeder game which WILL be marketed with more effort for beginners

 

Ah yes, MAC will solve it all. I highly doubt it will if its the same "solution" as enabling game mode. The challenge is not making DCS easier or less realistic, its giving people better tools to learn it. And if MAC becomes an independent stand alone game, far from being a feeder, it may sifon away the majority of new users and keep them locked in a separate universe where they dont get challenged or have the ability to progress to DCS. If ED do this wrong, MAC may end up killing DCS.

 

If you didnt see this on the product you picked up, it doesn't help, but then you also have an incomplete view of how things are.

 

No. You still have a complete view of what its like when you dont have the P47, which is probably 98% of newbies. If only ED spent that same effort on a plane or module that everyone has access to, or at least one that newbies are likely to buy.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Vertigo72

[Pikey]

@vertigo72

 

This is your thread. Would you mind succinctly identifying an exact example of what would have made things better for you?

 

Let me take the last example you made - P51 training.

 

Problem:

"Cannot see the flaps"

 

Not Acknowledged:

"Yellow arrow pointing to offscreen"

 

Root cause of issue:

"I dont know how to turn my head"

 

Let me comment on this please. I will be hand on heart truthful here.

 

I don't understand how this is a problem. Every flight sim has a method to move your view. In DCS there is a headtracker, a default PoV binding (which i wish to hell would get off my trim hat) and VR. How is this the level that a tutorial needs to attend to? The first hat DCS finds, is bound to "view". Headtracking is automatically bound, across any device, including mouse mode.

View is made specifically the first bound thing on every controller.

 

Do you want to know how I know? (no, but Im going to tell you)

 

I have access to every module in DCS and I have had to unbind that stupid view up, left, down up and right etc from EVERY DAM controller every single time and it infuriates me. Now I know why, its for people that cannot manage this on their own. Yet we have reach a new low, someone that cannot find options, controls and press the button on their <whatever Stick> or type View or operate a simple User Interface with standardised keys like "Escape" "Options" "Controls", operate a mouse, etc.

 

 

You have gone TOO FAR if you are saying this is not good enough.

 

Enough, come up with something reasonable. Your example is not reasonable. I can find many. I tested the P51 tutorial in the last month. I went through a full controller binding. I learned and executed cold start, take off and land, with controls and optional weapons firing in under 15 minutes. I watched the initial Lesson 1. I found it enough to tell me everything I need to know. Why are you being so special about this?

 

 

I do NOT accept your example as a valid problem.

[nessuno0505]

Flying airplanes is difficult.

IRL you have to study a lot of stuff and constantly keep training even for a basic PPL.

A flight simulator allows you to experience flight with a slightly lower training curve.

Flying a military air superiority jet fighter is a lot more difficult than flying a GA airplane.

IRL you need phisical fitness other than studying, and you should have been young, healthy and american in the late 80s to fly a Tomcat for real.

In DCS you can simulate something like (within simulation limits, obviously) flying a Tomcat.

Do you think this could be easy?

Nevertheless, DCS provides you a full detailed manual, in which the cockpit is explained gauge by gauge, then you have checklists, weapon employment flow-charts, and so on. After you have studied the manual, you have pre-built training missions in which to try performing some of the things you have learned in the manual. Then there's a mission editor in which you can build your own training missions. I think all of this is more than enough.

If you are a total novice in flight simulation maybe you should not start with a Tomcat.

If you want basic flying lessons maybe you should start from a GA airplane or a trainer. Although we have Yak-52, L-39 or C-101 in DCS, maybe there are other flight simulation platforms more suitable for a basic flight training.

The great thing in DCS is that you have to study if you want to fly a Tomcat (or an A-10c, an f-18 and so on). When you become proficient you are satisfied because you have studied, and because what you have learned was not so easy to achieve.

If you want to experience flight simulation and want it to be (slightly) easier, you should start with a Cessna 172 (there are many flight sims providing it out there); if you want to enjoy a Tomcat without studying, maybe you should look at ace combat or similar software.

Flight simulation is like gymnastic: no pain, no gain.

That said, ED will offer MAC in the near future to help new players with something more accessible. I hope DCS remains what it is, because this is its strenght.

 

P.S. even if configuring hardware can sometimes be boring, I prefer to manage manually all my hotas and pedals bindings for each new module I buy, since I have my ideas of ergonomics and ease of use and it does not always match with ED default bindings (it never matches, except for the a-10c with hotas warthog, and I've changed minor things even there).

[Vertigo72]

I don't understand how this is a problem.

 

Tutorial told me to move flaps lever, this is what I see:

 

 

Text has gone, I cant progress in the tutorial without moving the invisible lever. No mention that you can hide the pilot or how to hide the pilot. And thats after having followed the cockpit familiarization with gems like:

 

 

And you dont see a problem or any way this could possibly be made better. Like mentioning the keybind to hide the pilot? Are you telling me that wouldnt make it better? Ignoring all the much more important things Ive mentioned THIS is the hill you want to die on ?

 

You win, I give up.

 

BTW, I believe they added the pilot body later, so this may be a "bug". But the fact you cant even acknowledge it says it all.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Vertigo72

[Pikey]

I just tried the very first TF-51 training mission, the engine start procedure, and the first thing it tells me is raising the flap lever. A lever I can not even see because its outside my view without trackir. A lever I can not see with track ir or after if I figured out how to pan the view, because the pilot body hides it. Does it teach me how to pan the view ? No. How to hide the pilot body, or how to adjust my view laterally? No. And by the time I realized I cant see it, the text which contained a keyboard short cut alternative has disappeared. Im already stuck. 20 seconds after starting the first tutorial in the simplest plane I may have to use google. Brilliant. Thats certainly not going to deter any potential F18 buyers.

 

How frigging hard do you think it is to improve this? What radical changes does it require to the game engine to make this better? Why do you people insist on repeating over and over that improving the onboarding experience is both unnecessary and somehow impossible when it so blatantly isnt?

People reading this need to know on every single point you are factually incorrect, and the problem is with you. You didnt need to embarass yourself.

I renamed my profile so I could see what a first user would see.

I just tried the very first TF-51 training mission, the engine start procedure, and the first thing it tells me is raising the flap lever.

The very first mission is the cockpit overview lesson. (see the attached picture "lessonorder") You deliberately skip the orientation, where it explains what the names of things are, one of your famous moaning points for keybindings. THe selections screen for 1 and 2 is absolutley CLEAR.

Does it teach me how to pan the view ? No.

Yes, It does. On the first page of Lesson 1. The very first. Not the Vertigo72 first, the actual real life first (see attached picture "firstscreen"). The one you skipped because you apparently dont need to know the names of the buttons for keybinding. ... Picture below. He also talks about how to look around in case you don't read so well, which at this point I'm considering a referal to an optician.

How to hide the pilot body, or how to adjust my view laterally? No.

There is NO pilot body on by default. You changed this from the configuration yourself. (see attached picture "defaultConfig") Having already found that, you've identified the first part of an on-off switch. And then you've blamed DCS for blocking your view and not teaching you something you changed. Are you deliberately being obtuse here?

Im already stuck. 20 seconds after starting the first tutorial in the simplest plane I may have to use google.

Hyperbole and wrong. I timed the first message at 1:40 seconds before it faded. This timer only progresses if Escape menu is not pressed. So in actual fact, it's unlimited. You can press escape, answer the door, have lunch, come back that afternoon and continue with the message up. Assuming the usage of Escape button is part of operating a PC, standard UI behaviour, the same as understanding applications have options and menus. Which, I know you found because that's where you turned you pilot body ON.

How frigging hard do you think it is to improve this? What radical changes does it require to the game engine to make this better?

On every point you think needs improvement, the game meets our expectations because we can count and read, and you cannot. The root cause of your disatisfaction is you. Either that or you are trolling, but I'm willing to bet you are not trolling, you just refuse to engage your brain.

[Mars Exulte]

Yeah...

 

''I can't see through the pilot''

Solution : tiny bit of initiative to look for a keybind for that

 

Nothing complained about so far is a issue unique to DCS, or that isn't easily got around by the slightest display of initiative or common sense. If a person is so utterly inept that they can't find out how to navigate the menu and perform basic UI functions they need to gtfo and go back to playing mazes on the back of children's cereal boxes. Even if by excessive hand holding you get them through the first 2-3 ''hurdles'' *shudder* they're going to crap out the very instant they get to something ACTUALLY difficult. I mean ffs, ''this person can't find their ass with both hands and mirror, but if ONLY WE GIVE THEM MORE POINTY ARROWS THEY'LL BE FINE''.... Yeah, no. I seriously doubt that.

 

Vertigo, all you've managed to do in this thread is make yourself look willfully obtuse and helpless. If indeed it's not ''willful'' (i.e. deliberate) God help you, you poor, poor soul...

Edited July 21, 2020 by zhukov032186

[SharpeXB]

Something which could be mentioned in the manuals is the benefit of a HOTAS controller and head tracking. As explained here

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4414035&postcount=1

Even though I was a complete novice coming to DCS I did happen to have a TrackIR and a HOTAS

That’s an immense help. The first “flying game” I had came with a description of the TrackIR and a HOTAS in the manual, I of course had never heard of TrackIR before, but got one right away before even attempting to play that game.

Edited July 21, 2020 by SharpeXB

[SmirkingGerbil]

Tutorial told me to move flaps lever, this is what I see:

 

Text has gone, I cant progress in the tutorial without moving the invisible lever. No mention that you can hide the pilot or how to hide the pilot. And thats after having followed the cockpit familiarization with gems like:

 

 

And you dont see a problem or any way this could possibly be made better. Like mentioning the keybind to hide the pilot? Are you telling me that wouldnt make it better? Ignoring all the much more important things Ive mentioned THIS is the hill you want to die on ?

 

You win, I give up.

 

BTW, I believe they added the pilot body later, so this may be a "bug". But the fact you cant even acknowledge it says it all.

 

Yet earlier in this thread, after I indicated the time I took to become familiar with the P-47, your response to me was how easily and quickly you took to the 109, as if my effort was out of proportion as a "DCS veteran".

 

But you can't even be bothered to check options and video settings, or post a question on the forums, about removing the pilots body - so in effect you claim the pilots body is a "bug" of some sort?

 

You lost me, and I think most long ago.

[draconus]

Even then you can still manipulate with cockpit through the body. Quite easy with those shiny flashing frame cursors.

 

I'd add a message to help new users when trying to start a combat mission:

"Warning! This mission contains live AI air and ground threats. With realistic settings and only 2 flight hours in this module you set yourself for a failure. Trying to repeat the mission can be very frustrating. Please use Instant Action and Training to get combat experience first."

Edited July 21, 2020 by draconus

[Pikey]

Yet earlier in this thread, after I indicated the time I took to become familiar with the P-47, your response to me was how easily and quickly you took to the 109, as if my effort was out of proportion as a "DCS veteran".

 

But you can't even be bothered to check options and video settings, or post a question on the forums, about removing the pilots body - so in effect you claim the pilots body is a "bug" of some sort?

 

You lost me, and I think most long ago.

You didnt notice that I already said the default is for the pilot body off. To change it, he's already found the setting. We aren't talking about a bug in the game at all. When you make a mistake its OK. When you blame someone else for it, it's not. WHen you create a monster thread of pages blaming the game for your own mistakes, you are trolling, or you had a major motorcycle accident years ago and are cognitively impaired.

[SmirkingGerbil]

You didnt notice that I already said the default is for the pilot body off. To change it, he's already found the setting. We aren't talking about a bug in the game at all. When you make a mistake its OK. When you blame someone else for it, it's not. WHen you create a monster thread of pages blaming the game for your own mistakes, you are trolling, or you had a major motorcycle accident years ago and are cognitively impaired.

 

Apologies, I missed that context, you are absolutely correct - just another highlight of the contradictions by OP throughout. Which is why I say "You lost me . . . " to Vert.

 

Hard to keep track of it all. Again, apologies for missing that bit of context.

Edited July 22, 2020 by SmirkingGerbil
clarity

[David OC]

The kids get frustrated because there entitled these days and want it now.

 

DCS is a little bit of work sorry and DCS / ED cannot afford to spend 10's of thousands holding hands programming for what? not even 5% of entitled players here.

 

DCS is a learning journey for X aircraft and X in-depth system. ( That is the niche ) Then learn weapons and tactics etc. That's not up to ED, there is a zillion things on the net to learn and study that. Plus all the online community's.

 

Any one struggling and need hand holding there is more than enough community lessons out the and also download Chuck's guides, that's also seen in my sig for new players.

 

These guides do a lot of hand holding and takes this off of ED's plate to do.

 

I have even done some very basic

that show me setting up controls. picture in picture, game and physical controls.

 

If you see the last comment at the video above, that's exacly what I'm talking about. I show how to bind up 5 or so commands to get them started.

 

and still get

.

 

""I know its to much, but can you export your joystick setup , So i just import it? ehhe""

 

That's the 5% that ED or the community struggle to help.

 

 

Not sure what more we can do for the entitled 5%?

Edited July 23, 2020 by David OC

[jasonbirder]

The kids get frustrated because there entitled these days and want it now

 

 

Seems a little harsh! Whatever your feelings about bundled DCS training/documentation

There can be no denying two things...fiirstly getting new players onbaord that might not have tried it can only be a good thing...secondly regardless of the technical correctness of the Manuals - they are good for systems/switchology...but don't do alot for telling you the What/Why of how to use them in a mission...

I can't see why anybody would be opposed to a) One of the trainers (say the C101 as it seems to get alot of love) coming with a "programmed instruction" type campaign that takes you through from start up to Instrument Flight/Formation Flight etc in baby steps (Baltic Dragons Harrier Training Missions show how that can be done) and b) The more expensive full-fidelity modules like the A10C/F16/F18 etc documentation being beefed up to explain to people why & when you might do a "pop-up attack" rather than a lay-down, why/when you might choose DTOS rather than CCIP etc etc

[Pikey]

Seems a little harsh! Whatever your feelings about bundled DCS training/documentation

There can be no denying two things...fiirstly getting new players onbaord that might not have tried it can only be a good thing...secondly regardless of the technical correctness of the Manuals - they are good for systems/switchology...but don't do alot for telling you the What/Why of how to use them in a mission...

I can't see why anybody would be opposed to a) One of the trainers (say the C101 as it seems to get alot of love) coming with a "programmed instruction" type campaign that takes you through from start up to Instrument Flight/Formation Flight etc in baby steps (Baltic Dragons Harrier Training Missions show how that can be done) and b) The more expensive full-fidelity modules like the A10C/F16/F18 etc documentation being beefed up to explain to people why & when you might do a "pop-up attack" rather than a lay-down, why/when you might choose DTOS rather than CCIP etc etc

Indeed.it's a bit harsh, I've seen more frustrated adults than kids.

 

The problem with the suggestion here... and let me be honest, I'd like to see something like this as there is a hole in DCS at the "entry point" ... is

you have to give away DLC to do it. I'm not seeing that level of relent from ED. Doesnt make sense to give things away to that extent. But it has been raised many many times that something like the L39 would have been good with a flight school campaign for newcomers. The problem is, if anyone will open their wallet, they would pick something a bit snazzier (actually a minority do seek a trainer, but it seems to be a very small minority).

 

So Imagine if the T-45 Goshawk was done and the lessons were made for training properly. I mean, from a lot lower standard of common knowledge. And THAT was free. Well....fat chance, but wouldn't it make a lot more sense to newcomers? Some of them at least. If I understand correctly, the cost of this type of effort would be massive. If a full module is so expensive to develop and so may years, we cannot imagine that kind of thing being given away for free. The C101 is a pretty good fit for an existing module, but ho wmuch money would it cost ED to buy the rights from AvioDev? If that was even a question.

 

I'd love to see a flight school, damn, I could have thrown so many people in the direction of "Lesson 17 - TACAN Navigation" it would have been awesome to quickly assess new pilots - send your trk file in completing these lessons - earn wings, hello Hornet, off we go back to training again. But the difference being, everyone was a common skill standard.

 

I'd be OK if they gave away for free one of the modules I had bought. But I dont think ED will be doing it. The good news is, some of the things I thought they would never be able to do, they did. So Im not always the harbinger of doom.

 

So - squadron based multiplayer training. I wrote a training for the F-14, pilot arc only but assisted with the RIO arc. Even a simplified type conversion, with as much reuse of existing material from other squadrons, and as much self qualification as possible, only minimal check rides and I was only on the basics after months of work. The idea that same course would have been remade to handle folks that dont know anything of flying, is simply impossible to imagine. The idea that an Instructor could 1:many guide people through that course is unbelieveable to me. For a start, people just dont show up, especially people that dont want to read books. It would be a giant waste of time. DCS is a eat all you want buffet. But there's no service. You get up, go pick your food, then eat it. Some of the folks expect a la carte, with service. And the business model just evaporated.

[SharpeXB]

The more expensive full-fidelity modules like the A10C/F16/F18 etc documentation being beefed up to explain to people why & when you might do a "pop-up attack" rather than a lay-down, why/when you might choose DTOS rather than CCIP etc etc

Again... there’s this thing called Google :music_whistling:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toss_bombing

 

It’s ridiculous for ED to spend its resources spoon feeding stuff that can be found in a few seconds on this amazing new thing called the internet.

 

When you say “beef up” the A-10C manual, this already tops out at 671 pages.

[Mars Exulte]

''Beef up the manual''

You mean the one that people already can't be bothered to read?

[David OC]

Indeed.it's a bit harsh, I've seen more frustrated adults than kids.

 

It's not all of them and we do teach many that want to fight / learn online.

 

But it is annoying to get those

on a very simple video I do to help. (Can we have you profile. I.E not wanting to think about it and know how to do it) I just want it now and fly now etc.

[SharpeXB]

But it is annoying to get those

on a very simple video I do to help. (Can we have you profile. I.E not wanting to think about it and know how to do it) I just want it now and fly now etc.

It’s a very nice video. But it’s just amazing that people would need this level of handholding. And then still ask for it to be handed to them :doh:

Does DCS attract players who have simply never seen a PC game before?

Have you ever seen another game where people can’t understand simple controller bindings?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

The Dunning-Kruger effect seems to be invoked here, from both ends of the spectrum.

 

New-ish players think that it's possible to improve the training to encompass everything because they've picked up some of the basics - they've no idea how far they still have to go. The experienced players think it's easy to find the resources for everything - they've forgotten how far they've come.

 

Unfortunate that the OP couldn't have been more diplomatic, otherwise it might have been possible to meet in the middle and come to a consensus on how things could be improved.

[Mars Exulte]

@Sharpe

I'm pretty sure every game attracts people that have never seen a PC before. Everybody starts somewhere... that said, DCS makes for a reallllllllllly steep introduction lol