Any official roadmap updates?

[ouky1991]

It would be great to have status update on things in works (long/mid/near term). For example the new WWII damage model and garphics effects. Also what is the status of the clouds? They were supposed to be worked on again by may 2020. Has that changed?

 

 

I realize the current focus is on bug fixing, but I don't know how much that interferes with things mentioned above, and what things from previous updates were pushed further away.

[Silver_Dragon]

here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=269757

[ouky1991]

here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=269757

 

I saw that one, that's where the clouds info is from. Sorry, I should have explained more. I meant recent info. Something that would tell us if they are still on track, or things got pushed back to prioritize bug fixing. And if so what are the new estimates.

[probad]

lmao what are you gonna do with that information? build your life around it? then fault ed for ruining your life when things don't go to plan?

you think they're gonna give you ammo to shoot them back with?

 

this obsession with roadmaps is frankly bizarre to me, its like some sort of addiction to a false security.

yea, roadmaps are issued to promote a sense of security -- but imagine actually believing in them lmao just LMAO

Edited July 6, 2020 by probad

[ngreenaway]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask how the timelines have been affected, and I don't think OPs query was worded in a way that warrants that response.

 

I think a simple "yea you can add a few months to this estimate, or no-that team isn't a part of the bug fixing effort so it's still mostly on track" from ED would be enough to for OP

 

I don't see anyone trying to nail ED down to a date so they can say "Gotcha! You promised and failed to deliver!" At a later date

[Thunderbird]

Tbh @ED is one of the Game Developer out there pumping with updates so much more often and something we all should take a moment to appreciate it use the time to learn what needed while waiting next one

[Snappy]

Tbh @ED is one of the Game Developer out there pumping with updates so much more often and something we all should take a moment to appreciate it use the time to learn what needed while waiting next one

 

If you are referring to pumping out a steady stream of big PR announcements of ever-new and cool-sounding stuff.Then yes.

 

However, if we are talking about actual updates regarding the progress(or lack thereof) in developement of such announced features (remember improved A.I., A.I. FM , damage models,weather, ATC , performance, visibility, performance diagrams, accurate&more complete changelogs amongst tons of other stuff?) then , no actually not pumping out of updates.

 

Regards,

 

Snappy

[Thunderbird]

I agree, specially the damage model badly need a work out, imagine dropping GBU on a tank a soldier stand next to it compare to IRL he's the superman

[ouky1991]

I believe most poeple here agree that bug fixing should be proirity. It would be understandable if things will be pushed back because of that. Anyway, I was hoping the status updates would be a regular thing.

[M1Combat]

"Anyway, I was hoping the status updates would be a regular thing."

 

They were...

 

Until the forum f-wits started complaining about them in every way imaginable...

 

"This isn't my pet feature..."

"I thought you promised this feature how could it possibly not be done..."

"What... You REARRANGED SOME PRIORITIES BASED ON PEOPLE WHO AREN'T ME!!!???"

"I bought this early access F-16... Why haven't you stopped working on everything else to make my module finished?"

"I bought the F-18... Why do you have anyone working on the F16?"

"Why don't you have all of the developers (yes all of them... even ones not employed by ED) working on clouds?"

"Nobody like WWII planes anyway this is dumb..."

 

I mean clearly some of those aren't actually as dumb as what I've heard... :)...

 

But yeah...

 

 

It's a cycle. About 6-12 months.

 

ED starts to open up and share info, plans, road maps... It's nice when it happens. It stays that way for about 6 months to a year, then they start catching flak from all of the entitled wanks on the forum (not that we "all" are entitled wanks mind you... I'm just saying there are some) who get agitated when ED doesn't work on their own little pet feature... then they all whine at the same time...

 

This makes ED readjust the amount of data they share because it appears wanks think plans are somehow set in stone and can't possibly be affected by the world and stuff. they feel every little tidbit that ED shares is a personal promise. I get it... some things ARE a promise... but not every little thing.

 

So... We appear to be entering the downward side of that at the moment.

 

That said... It appears the wanks have backed ED into a particular corner this time where they've chosen to go on a bug fixing binge. If that works out then it will be a good thing for the game long term... but I still take issue with the wanks and their approach.

 

Not to say I think that ED and their approach is exactly perfect either :)... but at least they wine a lot less ;)...

[Pizzicato]

"This isn't my pet feature..."

"I thought you promised this feature how could it possibly not be done..."

"What... You REARRANGED SOME PRIORITIES BASED ON PEOPLE WHO AREN'T ME!!!???"

"I bought this early access F-16... Why haven't you stopped working on everything else to make my module finished?"

"I bought the F-18... Why do you have anyone working on the F16?"

"Why don't you have all of the developers (yes all of them... even ones not employed by ED) working on clouds?"

"Nobody like WWII planes anyway this is dumb..."

 

 

You forgot "You mentioned feature X in last week's newsletter, but didn't mention it this week. Why is no one working on it? Is it dead? Why did you lie to us?" :)

[M1Combat]

Ahh yeah... the classic "Goldfish" response...

 

Good times :)

[ouky1991]

"Anyway, I was hoping the status updates would be a regular thing."

 

They were...

 

Until the forum f-wits started complaining about them in every way imaginable...

 

"This isn't my pet feature..."

"I thought you promised this feature how could it possibly not be done..."

"What... You REARRANGED SOME PRIORITIES BASED ON PEOPLE WHO AREN'T ME!!!???"

"I bought this early access F-16... Why haven't you stopped working on everything else to make my module finished?"

"I bought the F-18... Why do you have anyone working on the F16?"

"Why don't you have all of the developers (yes all of them... even ones not employed by ED) working on clouds?"

"Nobody like WWII planes anyway this is dumb..."

 

 

I underestand what you mean, but it very much depends on one's approach. You can be toxic or unreasonably emotional about it, or you can express yourself in civilised manner. It's not necessary a bad thing to complian if you're not a**hole about it, they might actualy appreciate the feedback. There's always gonna be people complaining under status updates, I trust ED can handle that.

 

 

Putting all caps disclaimer about dates not being set in stone in the announcements could help :)

Edited July 7, 2020 by ouky1991

[M1Combat]

For sure Ouky :)... I've watched the cycle a few times. I've lurked from well before my "2015" join date.

 

Feedback and constructive criticism is super good. I agree :).

 

The entitled selfishness that some people display is not :).

 

All caps disclaimer?? OK... but we could also use a few more people that are willing to allow goal posts to move when they get moved. I mean holy cow man... I've watched people do some downright infantile things on these forums because they didn't get what they want exactly when they thought they were going to have it. It's pretty crazy sometimes. I feel like it's a combination of the "internet community effect" and the newer generations just feeling like everything in the world is just there for their consumption and as long as "they pay for it" it should be exactly how they want exactly when they want no matter what's going on in anyone else's life.

 

That said... lest someone accuse me of "White Knighting" (they have before :)) I'll also say that they're not entirely incorrect when they mention the bugs we as a community live with. They ARE partly incorrect though :)...

 

Like just the other day I saw someone mention the Schkval thing where sometimes it starts just randomly moving and you lose your target picture. Yeah... happens occasionally but someone jumped in and just started spouting off about how the shark is completely unplayable. It's not. BUT... It's been an issue for a LONG time and ED should do something about it :).

 

So yeah... going too far on either side is bad.

 

Too far on the wank side and ED is pushed into not sharing their "best estimate" info.

Too far on the white knight side and ED gets complacent.

 

Cycle is WAD as far as I can tell :).

[Tokoyami]

There is a weird sense of dependence on developer interaction, that's true. I don't think the OP is one of those people though. There is also a real problem with ED over-promising and under-delivering for quite some time.

 

I think we can find common ground without insulting anyone and respecting the different aspects of this wonderful game (including the challenges providing said game) and differing opinions. Wouldn't we really rather shoot missiles at each other or work cooperatively to take down a SAM site than trade barbs here?

[M1Combat]

"I don't think the OP is one of those people though."

 

For sure :) I was just trying to let the OP know how the cycle seems to work and where we appear to be within that cycle :).

[ouky1991]

There is a weird sense of dependence on developer interaction, that's true. I don't think the OP is one of those people though. There is also a real problem with ED over-promising and under-delivering for quite some time.

 

I think we can find common ground without insulting anyone and respecting the different aspects of this wonderful game (including the challenges providing said game) and differing opinions. Wouldn't we really rather shoot missiles at each other or work cooperatively to take down a SAM site than trade barbs here?

 

Well you can see that basically on every forum involving a game. Two extremes, like M1Combat said - wank/white night side. But this particular product is little different than for example how EA games and DICE work.

 

When studio makes a game, they depend on their investor/publisher and have to communicate and listen to them. Here, we are the investors, but it's absolutely impossible ED could listen to each individual player. Perhaps some people see it that way and demand to be involved. I'm not one of them. Although, expecting open communication and regular status updates seems reasonable to me.

[M1Combat]

Yeah... open comms and regular updates. They're great. And I really think ED tries...

 

The problem is that there has to be a trade I think. The customer has to be willing to make a fair trade.

 

So what's fair?

 

Financially? I think purchasing the license to the module should end right there. You have the ability to purchase at any time after ED allows you to hit the buy button. You can buy during EA, and you can wait until full release. Also... you could wait until after that to be sure the product is as polished as you are willing to accept. I fully encourage everyone to take full advantage of all three :).

 

But the financial part of it should end there. I don't feel that the money you pay should entitle you to information about the future of the product. Only the past and current as it were.

 

That said... ED should have the ability to create a good product and a good track record that will allow people to feel confident that their money will be well spent. In this way ED can "project" the future, and the buyer can decide if they trust that and then buy into it as well. Or not.

 

Clearly it's up to the purchaser to decide if they've done that.

 

The other part of it is the information part.

 

ED has a responsibility to not "lie" to the purchaser purely based on ethics. It's just not good business to lie to people to take their money.

 

I don't feel like they do this. I feel like they have meetings and talks and dreams and hopes and aspirations... all good things... then they decide to share with us. They don't seem to do a "great" job with setting expectation regarding timelines. Kinda :). I feel that they do tend to tell us their best information at the time.

 

But then... they spend time trying to get the products out the door (this is an important step in business...) all the while trying to maintain their timeline, and then the forum population grabs pitchforks and (sometimes rightly...) complains about the state of things that don't get as much attention as they feel are deserved. the current issue... the bugs... I'm not against those pitch forks. Maybe just how they're wielded :). I think it's important for ED to get the message that a smoothly operating product is important. Job done it seems :). It took what it took. It's all good :). bug smashing is a fine use of time for a software company :).

 

But the question remains...

 

What is the community's part in fostering a good open communication relationship with ED? I've gone over what ED's part is... and they haven't been perfect at it. The community's part is to be respectful, realistic and forgiving.

 

It's that simple. We need to understand that trade.

 

We treat ED with respect, have realistic expectations in the first place and have a level of understanding (which doesn't approach door mat status...) when things don't go the way either we OR ED liked...

 

Then we exhibit that we are close enough to responsible adults that ED will be more willing to share.

 

That's the trade.

[deadpool]

So what's fair?

 

Financially? I think purchasing the license to the module should end right there. You have the ability to purchase at any time after ED allows you to hit the buy button. You can buy during EA, and you can wait until full release. Also... you could wait until after that to be sure the product is as polished as you are willing to accept.

 

Let's talk availability.

 

The multiplayer community is on open beta. So if you want that, you have to go open beta.

 

Now as for the your Early access you can buy when you want argument. That is quite true.

 

The only modern jet out of EA is the Mirage2000. So that's the only one you could buy.

Everything else is in EA. So if you want to participate, you have to buy EA.

 

Thank you for explaining me the theoretical freedom we have here.

 

What is the community's part in fostering a good open communication relationship with ED? I've gone over what ED's part is... and they haven't been perfect at it. The community's part is to be respectful, realistic and forgiving.

 

Please have a look at the F-16 forum where forum posts with people that feel - I think very understandably - deserted and left alone get closed and/or moved.

Yet at the same time you will not get comments on defects posts, so posts where you actually try to HELP ED do get a much slower response and you usually feel like you have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that you're correct.

I opened a forum post with a friendly plea to get some comment on the communication there, and it got moved away into the wishlist, without any comment.

 

It feels bad, man. It feels very unappreciated.

And if you want to have ED's higher ups commenting, you have to go to hoggit anyways.

Edited July 8, 2020 by deadpool

[ngreenaway]

They were...

 

Until the forum f-wits started complaining about them in every way imaginable...

 

"This isn't my pet feature..."

"I thought you promised this feature how could it possibly not be done..."

"What... You REARRANGED SOME PRIORITIES BASED ON PEOPLE WHO AREN'T ME!!!???"

"I bought this early access F-16... Why haven't you stopped working on everything else to make my module finished?"

"I bought the F-18... Why do you have anyone working on the F16?"

"Why don't you have all of the developers (yes all of them... even ones not employed by ED) working on clouds?"

"Nobody like WWII planes anyway this is dumb..."

 

 

this would be funny if it werent so true! and things are even less civil over on hoggit

[M1Combat]

Let's talk availability.

 

The multiplayer community is on open beta. So if you want that, you have to go open beta.

 

Now as for the your Early access you can buy when you want argument. That is quite true.

 

The only modern jet out of EA is the Mirage2000. So that's the only one you could buy.

Everything else is in EA. So if you want to participate, you have to buy EA.

 

Thank you for explaining me the theoretical freedom we have here.

 

Ehh... well... No.

 

There's an F-15, SU27/33, J11, MiG 29 (x2)... All those... I get it... they aren't full fidelity but the price, FM and missiles are good (note that I didn't say perfect please :)). I think we also have an F5... Not quite up to snuff on the "modern fighter" subject but... Used well it definitely has potential. Also... those FC modules are some of the most capable in the game regarding the multi-player you're talking about.

 

I think there may be a warthog also... Not sure that one's finished though? It's so new and all.

 

There's also a MiG 21... Again... maybe not strictly "modern" but... also not "incapable".

 

Then... and I'm not trying to stretch too far to make my point... but the 14, 18 and 17 are just barely "Early Access" IMO. Also... The AV8 and the Viggen... come ON man... They're "fairly usable" to put it mildly. Seriously.

 

So yeah... your post pretty much sums up the point I was making... So thank you for that :).

 

I mean don't get me wrong. I see your point. If someone wanted to just stubbornly say "I aint buyin nuthin but FULLY COMPLETE modules. Nun uh dis EARLY ACCESS junk for ME..." Well then sure. OK. You got me... except for the part where no you don't :).

 

So yeah. Thank you for explaining the theoretical ties that bind some folks :). They probably SHOULD stick with the SEVEN (not one, Sir) finished modern jets that are also the most capable in the game.

 

 

Please have a look at the F-16 forum where forum posts with people that feel - I think very understandably - deserted and left alone get closed and/or moved.

Yet at the same time you will not get comments on defects posts, so posts where you actually try to HELP ED do get a much slower response and you usually feel like you have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that you're correct.

I opened a forum post with a friendly plea to get some comment on the communication there, and it got moved away into the wishlist, without any comment.

 

It feels bad, man. It feels very unappreciated.

And if you want to have ED's higher ups commenting, you have to go to hoggit anyways.

 

It was stated all along that they were trying to get the 16 out early, make it a capable dogfight tool, then finish the 18 while porting the parts of the 18 that work in the 16 to the 16, then finishing off the 16.

 

This gets into the "respectful, realistic and forgiving" part of my post. It's SUPER early in the F-16's life. There's a TON of time left... and... any time ED spends working on things that are exclusive to the F-16 takes time away from WHAT THEY SAID THEY WOULD DO the whole time.

 

So... Out of one side of their mouths the wanks say "Just do what you say you'll do" and then out of the other side they say "Just do what I tell you to do".

 

Then... A great deal of them get unhappy no matter which way ED chooses to go.

 

So yeah...

 

 

WANKS. Effing wanks.

 

This stupidness causes the rest of the folks here to suffer not having "best info we have at the time" shared with us.

 

Also...

"you usually feel like you have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that you're correct."

 

Are you complaining about that? Yeah?? That's a problem for you? Good.

 

That's what separates this sim from the others friend ;).

Edited July 8, 2020 by M1Combat

[Notso]

Let's talk availability.

 

The multiplayer community is on open beta. So if you want that, you have to go open beta.

 

.

 

And see, I don't get this at all. Why would the MP community be on OB? That makes ZERO sense. The entire point of OB is to test and find bugs and roll out new products. Why in the hell would you want that in a MP environment where things are buggy and nothing ever stays the same? How do you plan a big "war" when entire systems and weapons may literally change overnight? I would think Stable would be the obvious choice because at least you have a bit more stability and less constant change. It's not that Stable is bug free, but at least how TGP and Radars and weapons deliveries aren't going to change every two weeks as new OB things get added to test.

 

I think people have totally lost the entire point of what OB is. I have zero issue with people who choose OB. I do myself at times. But in a competitive MP environment, it seems like it's built in chaos. Just saying.

[kengou]

And see, I don't get this at all. Why would the MP community be on OB? That makes ZERO sense. The entire point of OB is to test and find bugs and roll out new products. Why in the hell would you want that in a MP environment where things are buggy and nothing ever stays the same? How do you plan a big "war" when entire systems and weapons may literally change overnight? I would think Stable would be the obvious choice because at least you have a bit more stability and less constant change. It's not that Stable is bug free, but at least how TGP and Radars and weapons deliveries aren't going to change every two weeks as new OB things get added to test.

 

I think people have totally lost the entire point of what OB is. I have zero issue with people who choose OB. I do myself at times. But in a competitive MP environment, it seems like it's built in chaos. Just saying.

It's not about stability. It's about new features. Enough of the people who play multiplayer want to test out the shiny new toys as soon as they come out that the servers need to cater to that. And new weapons/systems/features/aircraft come out to open beta first.

[Notso]

It's not about stability. It's about new features. Enough of the people who play multiplayer want to test out the shiny new toys as soon as they come out that the servers need to cater to that. And new weapons/systems/features/aircraft come out to open beta first.

 

I'm fully aware of that. But that's exactly my point, why would someone want to fly a competitive MP environment that is constantly changing and usually more buggy? I would think you would NOT want then entire world to be different every couple of weeks. By stable - I didn't mean from a system stability POV. I meant from a game stability aspect... as in not constantly in flux. Although, I suppose some view that as a competitive advantage if they can master the new toys sooner than the next person can. <shrug> Whatever, I have nothing against it. I just don't understand the mindset I suppose. Enjoy.

[Art-J]

1) Before recent almost-half-a-year delay in updates for stable version, "stable" was really a previous Open-Beta build, with only a couple of bugs less. In flux pretty much to the same degree, which meant there was no practical point in staying in Stable anyway.

 

2) When the aforementioned delay happened, there were so many absolutely crucial bug fixes and differences in modules functionality implemented in Open Beta, that staying in hopelessly delayed Stable became more and more questionable choice.