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Viper vs Hornet Radar


dores893

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Does the Viper radar suck donkey balls compared to the Hornet, or is it just me? I've been flying the Hornet for a while, so I'm much more familiar with it. However, in the same circumstances, without datalink, it seems like Hornet RWS and even TWS will clearly pick up everyone in front of it out to 80 miles easily. The Viper seems to struggle with its contacts, if it picks them up at all. I know the Hornet can't be that much better than the Viper, so that begs the question of (1) is this an early release issue, or (2) is the radar that touchy?

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Firstly, in terms of detection range, the Viper radar should actually be well below the F-18. There are various sources that confirm this, and its pretty obvious when you consider dish size and power. Now in DCS, its way too good actually, and will pick up targets almost as far as the hornet. As for the "struggling with its contacts", could you provide more detail? What range is it struggling? Is this struggling in the form of loosing lock? If its past 40nm yes I have found it to be a bit finicky detecting and keeping a lock on targets. Inside 40nm I rarely have any issues tho.

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What I find abit strange is that the F16's radar seems very slow to pick up targets in dogfight mode (so within 10 nm) , this goes for both boresight, horizontal and vertical scan, however esp. the latter is really bad. The F18 is much much faster to acquire a target under these circumstances.

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What I find abit strange is that the F16's radar seems very slow to pick up targets in dogfight mode

That's a bug with the way antenna training in ACM mode works. It should be just as responsive as the Hornet in ACM mode.

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Firstly, in terms of detection range, the Viper radar should actually be well below the F-18. There are various sources that confirm this, and its pretty obvious when you consider dish size and power. Now in DCS, its way too good actually, and will pick up targets almost as far as the hornet. As for the "struggling with its contacts", could you provide more detail? What range is it struggling? Is this struggling in the form of loosing lock? If its past 40nm yes I have found it to be a bit finicky detecting and keeping a lock on targets. Inside 40nm I rarely have any issues tho.

 

The F-16 radar seems to have a hard limit of 20nm for cold contacts. If it really is supposed to be lower than that, I'll have to think the Viggen is better tasked for A/A BVR.

 

Also the numbers I saw for the time being indicate a less than 10% smaller detection range for the F-16 AN/APG-68. Though I am not sure if it is the (9) version which we don't get, or the (5) version.

 

I'm glad to see this solidified with sources, as I don't seem to find any reliables online.

 

BR,

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I can be more specific. The scenario involves detection and splashing/scratching of unknown bandits in the 60-80nm range without datalink. You can run it on havoc company's dedicated Caucasus server out of Krasnodar center. The 18 basically takes off already detecting all targets in RWS out to 80nm, and it does not lose them even in TWS. At around 20 nm you can ripple off your AMRAAMs in TWS mode. If you need go into any of the ACM modes such as WACO, then target detection is very quick.

 

Now, in the same scenario in the 16, if you can detect the targets at all, they are mostly blipping on and off the radar all the way to the merge. I find it so difficult to get a track in TWS, that around 20nm I go into ACM mode in almost every merge and just dogfight. Occasionally, I can get a target in STT in the 20-40nm range. It's great at dog fighting, but its BVR abilities seem pretty weak. I'm trying to understand why. I know the AN/AGP 68 is about 5-10 years older than the 73 carried by the Charlie hornet. I'm willing to accept user error, as I'm new to the plane, but the Hornet almost seems too easy in comparison.

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I'm glad to see this solidified with sources, as I don't seem to find any reliables online.

 

BR,

Deadpool

We have this from this doc:

image.png

Considering that these are generalized, ideal ranges, they will not be absolutely exact, but they will be very good at comparing relative ranges. And for the F-15, we do have a benchmark from a document (T-33 sized target detected in lookdown at 85nm HOT, and 30nm COLD): apg-63-range.pngFor comparison, our F-16 is seeing fighter sized targets at 60+nm. This is really quite ridiculous for such a small radar. This was discussed in this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=272904

There are also a few other sources, such as the Forecast International's archive for the APG-66(V)2, which in detection range should be fairly similar to the 68(V)5 we have. And it lists a range (presumably against fighter sized targets) of 24-36nm lookdown, and 29-48nm for lookup.

 

 

Also, source for that 10% figure?


Edited by dundun92

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I can be more specific. The scenario involves detection and splashing/scratching of unknown bandits in the 60-80nm range without datalink. You can run it on havoc company's dedicated Caucasus server out of Krasnodar center. The 18 basically takes off already detecting all targets in RWS out to 80nm, and it does not lose them even in TWS. At around 20 nm you can ripple off your AMRAAMs in TWS mode. If you need go into any of the ACM modes such as WACO, then target detection is very quick.

 

Now, in the same scenario in the 16, if you can detect the targets at all, they are mostly blipping on and off the radar all the way to the merge. I find it so difficult to get a track in TWS, that around 20nm I go into ACM mode in almost every merge and just dogfight. Occasionally, I can get a target in STT in the 20-40nm range. It's great at dog fighting, but its BVR abilities seem pretty weak. I'm trying to understand why. I know the AN/AGP 68 is about 5-10 years older than the 73 carried by the Charlie hornet. I'm willing to accept user error, as I'm new to the plane, but the Hornet almost seems too easy in comparison.

Interesting because I havent had many issues with the F-16 radar in that regard. Are you sure you have the elevation set correctly? Inside 40nm my TWS tracks are quite stable in the F-16, unless the target goes cold/notches. Also, maybe try reducing the scan azimuth to ±30° if you havent already done so.

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I have the same issues. I've tried everything. Antenna elevation settings, azimuth scan, etc.. I cannot get the radar to even see enemy targets until it gets within 30-40 miles, and I can rarely get TWS to work correctly. Even if I have two bandits out in front and both showing on radar (actual blips not datalink). I switch to TWS and then repeatedly hitting TMS right does nothing most of the time, and when it works it will usually just work on one contact even though more than one is visible. In most cases, I just use RWS because I can't get TWS to work. Funny thing is, I can see friendly aircraft usually with no problems at further ranges. Only seems to happen with enemy contacts. Note this is in multiplayer. I usually fly on Inferno servers. This just can't be right. Why have the options for 80 and 160 miles when those never work? Something is off.

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Let's just say this, TWS isn't used on the Viper according to SME's I've talked to. Especially not on the APG-68 series. The 16 isn't a BVR fighter (withoud MIDS enhancement). If anything the DCS Viper's radar hugely overperforms in detection range, while not being jammable at the same time. The ACM modes seem to underperform on the other hand in terms of acquistion speed and reliability.

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We have this from this doc:

There are also a few other sources, such as the Forecast International's archive for the APG-66(V)2, which in detection range should be fairly similar to the 68(V)5 we have. And it lists a range (presumably against fighter sized targets) of 24-36nm lookdown, and 29-48nm for lookup.

 

 

Also, source for that 10% figure?

 

Page 10 shows that this isn't even about the AN/APG68 at all.

It's about the AN/APG66 for the F-16 and the AN/APG65 for the F-18.

 

I will try to find the 10% source.

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Let's just say this, TWS isn't used on the Viper according to SME's I've talked to. Especially not on the APG-68 series. The 16 isn't a BVR fighter (withoud MIDS enhancement). If anything the DCS Viper's radar hugely overperforms in detection range, while not being jammable at the same time. The ACM modes seem to underperform on the other hand in terms of acquistion speed and reliability.

 

Are you even playing the same game ? The F16 radar constantly loses lock even on targets in flat terrain. I have no issues with the hornet radar

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The only issue I see with the F-16's radar in terms of realism atm is when in ACM modes, here it severely underperforms by being incredibly slow to pick up targets, infact it most often downright refuses to pick up targets when using vertical scan, even if they're directly infront of you and within a couple nm.

 

In BVR mode it seems to perform as expected, albeit it perhaps seems abit too easy to notch.

 

Anyway in regards to the detection range of the AN/APG-68 v9 (which is the version our simulated craft has), according to F-16.net it's 105 km (56 nm) for a 5 sq.m. object, and I don't think any of the fighters we have ingame currently has an RCS lower than that?

 

Not sure how the AN/APG-73 in the Hornet compares to this, but AFAIK the AN/APG-68 v9 is newer, and according to C.W. Lemoine who flew with the older AN/APG-68 v5 equipped falcons there wasn't much to choose in this department. So I'm inclined to believe the AN/APG-68 v9 is probably atleast as good as the Hornets AN/APG-73.


Edited by Hummingbird
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The only issue I see with the F-16's radar in terms of realism atm is when in ACM modes, here it severely underperforms by being incredibly slow to pick up targets, infact it most often downright refuses to pick up targets when using vertical scan, even if they're directly infront of you and within a couple nm.

 

In BVR mode it seems to perform as expected, albeit it perhaps seems abit too easy to notch.

 

Anyway in regards to the detection range of the AN/APG-68 v9 (which is the version our simulated craft has), according to F-16.net it's 105 km (56 nm) for a 5 sq.m. object, and I don't think any of the fighters we have ingame currently has an RCS lower than that?

 

Not sure how the AN/APG-73 in the Hornet compares to this, but AFAIK the AN/APG-68 v9 is newer, and according to C.W. Lemoine who flew with the older AN/APG-68 v5 equipped falcons there wasn't much to choose in this department. So I'm inclined to believe the AN/APG-68 v9 is probably atleast as good as the Hornets AN/APG-73.

Are you sure we have the V9? Just from a quick google search: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2019-02-15_Beta/

 

Core systems of our F-16C include:

 

  • F-110-GE-129 turbofan engine
  • AN/APG-68(V)5 multi-mode radar
  • AN/ALR-56M Radar Warning Receiver
  • AN/ALQ-131/184 ECM pods
  • CCIP (Common Configuration Implementation Program) update
  • ALE-47 countermeasure system

Also several fighters have RCSs below 5 sq.m in DCS, namely the JF-17 with 3, F-16 with 4, mirage with 4, and Viggen with 3


Edited by dundun92

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Page 10 shows that this isn't even about the AN/APG68 at all.

It's about the AN/APG66 for the F-16 and the AN/APG65 for the F-18.

 

I will try to find the 10% source.

Granted it is for the APG-66, but you have to realize you arent gonna double the detection range just from better electronics, not over this kind of timespan anyway. To get that much of a boost you are going to need a bigger radar dish/higher power, and at least as far as the dish is concerned the APG-66 and 68 are the same.


Edited by dundun92

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Are you even playing the same game ? The F16 radar constantly loses lock even on targets in flat terrain. I have no issues with the hornet radar

Is this a SAM lock by chance?

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Granted it is for the APG-66, but you have to realize you arent gonna double the detection range just from better electronics, not over this kind of timespan anyway. To get that much of a boost you are going to need a bigger radar dish/higher power, and at least as far as the dish is concerned the APG-66 and 68 are the same.

EDIT: also you have to realize that in addition to the F-15/18s bigger more powerful radars, they have HPRF, while the APG-68 is MPRF only afaik. This will really hurt detection ranges vs hot targets.

 

The F-16s radar automatically switches between MPRF and HPRF automatically.

We definitely have HPRF. But I am open for sources.

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The F-16s radar automatically switches between MPRF and HPRF automatically.

We definitely have HPRF. But I am open for sources.

Actually I stand corrected, looked closely and the HAF -34 does indeed give both HPRF and MPRF as options.

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Are you sure we have the V9? Just from a quick google search: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2019-02-15_Beta/

 

Core systems of our F-16C include:

 

  • F-110-GE-129 turbofan engine
  • AN/APG-68(V)5 multi-mode radar
  • AN/ALR-56M Radar Warning Receiver
  • AN/ALQ-131/184 ECM pods
  • CCIP (Common Configuration Implementation Program) update
  • ALE-47 countermeasure system

Also several fighters have RCSs below 5 sq.m in DCS, namely the JF-17 with 3, F-16 with 4, mirage with 4, and Viggen with 3

 

We have a Blk.50 anno 2007 AFAIK, which means AN/APG-68 V9.

 

As for the RCS figures, where are you getting those figures from? AFAIK even the small F-16 comes in at 5 sq.m., which is the std. the radar was measured against.


Edited by Hummingbird
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Granted it is for the APG-66, but you have to realize you arent gonna double the detection range just from better electronics, not over this kind of timespan anyway. To get that much of a boost you are going to need a bigger radar dish/higher power, and at least as far as the dish is concerned the APG-66 and 68 are the same.

 

Detection range was increased 30% from just the AN/APG-68 V5 to V9.

 

Also the APG-66 is supposedly nowhere near the any version of the APG-68 in detection capability if F-16 pilots is anything to go by, all of which describe the introduction of the APG-68 as a quantum leap forward over the APG-66.

 

I really don't think there's much to choose between the AN/APG-68 & AN/APG-73 in terms of detection range.

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Detection range was increased 30% from just the AN/APG-68 V5 to V9.

 

Also the APG-66 is supposedly nowhere near the any version of the APG-68 in detection capability if F-16 pilots is anything to go by, all of which describe the introduction of the APG-68 as a quantum leap forward over the APG-66.

 

I really don't think there's much to choose between the AN/APG-68 & AN/APG-73 in terms of detection range.

 

LOL what. Source?

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Also the APG-66 is supposedly nowhere near the any version of the APG-68 in detection capability if F-16 pilots is anything to go by, all of which describe the introduction of the APG-68 as a quantum leap forward over the APG-66.

Quantum leap in what? Detection range? Modes and features? Reliability? Trackfile stability? ECCM? Resolution? Saying a general statement "quantum leap" is completely unhelpful here, we need specifics.

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We have a Blk.50 anno 2007 AFAIK, which means AN/APG-68 V9.

 

 

It's been stated that we do NOT get the V9. The beta announcement specifically mentions V5.

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