Please, in the name of all that is holy, enable dot labels

[Extranajero]

So many people have 4K monitors now and spotting in DCS when using one is awful.

Everything else looks great in 4K, but you can't see a plane until it's right in front of you.

If people don't like the labels then they have the option to turn them off, the grey unobtrusive dots seem best to me.

[philstyle]

So many people have 4K monitors now and spotting in DCS when using one is awful.

Everything else looks great in 4K, but you can't see a plane until it's right in front of you.

If people don't like the labels then they have the option to turn them off, the grey unobtrusive dots seem best to me.

 

 

If you want to be able to have aircraft visible through clouds and through the cockpit metal (i.e through your seat) then yeah, go for it.

The dots make it impossible to hide, visually though - because they mark an aeroplane no matter where it is (behind a cloud, under your seat) so if you want sensible WVR combat then dots are a joke.

[QuiGon]

If you want to be able to have aircraft visible through clouds and through the cockpit metal (i.e through your seat) then yeah, go for it.

The dots make it impossible to hide, visually though - because they mark an aeroplane no matter where it is (behind a cloud, under your seat) so if you want sensible WVR combat then dots are a joke.

This!

[Extranajero]

Grey dots rarely show up through the cockpit. They also disappear in ground clutter.

Clouds aren't synced in multiplayer anyway - you might think you are hiding, but you might not be.

 

Dot labels also provide a level playing field, despite what your equipment is, whether it's 4K or 1080, or one of those magic buckets you wear on your head.

 

It seems to me that some people don't want a level playing field in terms of spotting.

[Shahdoh]

Well, the other issue is that even WITH dot labels, it may still not be a level playing field due to resolution issues.

 

I had developed what seemed a near perfect dot label setup until friends who got on with VR identified that what they saw was VERY different then what I had setup, due to the lower resolution they have.

 

I agree that the label being seen through game objects is indeed a problem, and would think that could be sorted out by having the Label on the same "graphics layer" as the objects they are displaying for. How easy is this to accomplish? Hard to say, but would solve that issue.

 

Next is the issue of different resolutions displaying the dots differently. The cure for this are more detailed label options that allow to either automatically adjust label size due to resolution (I rarely trust auto anything), or user modifiable settings for VR, 1080P and 4k at a minimum.

 

Yes, this would be extremely tedious to setup, but is the only way to equal the playing field IMHO.

[Extranajero]

I didn't realise that under some conditions VR users got an advantage...that's interesting Shadoh.

I don't really mind users of different devices seeing a little better than me, if I can at least see something - before its way too close to react properly.

[Fri13]

If you want to be able to have aircraft visible through clouds and through the cockpit metal (i.e through your seat) then yeah, go for it.

The dots make it impossible to hide, visually though - because they mark an aeroplane no matter where it is (behind a cloud, under your seat) so if you want sensible WVR combat then dots are a joke.

 

I don't know about that. I have labels settings that are not seeing through airframe and when aircraft goes behind clouds, they dissapear smoohtly etc. labels don't pop-up but they are partially transparent etc.

 

So flying with the labels is possible to lose another if you don't keep an eye to them. Of course I even had label set to range of 3 km only, so below that and it is anyways gone.

 

Personally I don't care about labels for actual combat, but for training and such they are nice. Anyways I spot the targets anyways before labels regardless VR or 4K, why they are just annoyance anyways, especially when they are unreliable like mine settings.

[Shahdoh]

Labels to only 3 km is not really using labels. I set mine up to like 15 km, because that was what a friend of mine could see targets at WITHOUT labels. So, it equalled the playing field somewhat. Yes, you can use shades of grey and even have some gradients due to range, but sooner or later you will see the dot contrast with SOMETHING it should not, whether it is clouds or the cockpit interior etc....

 

Not really saying VR had an advantage, but their dots, due to the low res were usually larger than intended, and some said it was disadvantage because then they could not ID the target.

 

I also turned off the labels when within 1km so that the dot could not be used in a dogfight situation (This was setup for WWII missions). For the most part, people who experienced the labels thought it worked out great, but there were still issues that needed correcting that were beyond our control to do so.

 

 

PS: Another thing while kind of wish listing here. Would be awesome if could set the color of the dot to the primary color of the aircraft skin. That would probably be most difficult one to achieve admittedly though.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Shahdoh

[=475FG= Dawger]

Grey dots rarely show up through the cockpit. They also disappear in ground clutter.

Clouds aren't synced in multiplayer anyway - you might think you are hiding, but you might not be.

 

Dot labels also provide a level playing field, despite what your equipment is, whether it's 4K or 1080, or one of those magic buckets you wear on your head.

 

It seems to me that some people don't want a level playing field in terms of spotting.

 

This ^^^^^

 

Labels.lua is highly customizable and almost all issues can be resolved.

 

I had to start my own VR friendly WWII server because of this and a few other issues with visibility/spotting/graphics.

 

I'd rather not further fragment the small WWII player base but you do what you gotta do.

[ViFF]

If you want to be able to have aircraft visible through clouds and through the cockpit metal (i.e through your seat) then yeah, go for it.

The dots make it impossible to hide, visually though - because they mark an aeroplane no matter where it is (behind a cloud, under your seat) so if you want sensible WVR combat then dots are a joke.

 

We prefer this approach. Over 80% of shootdowns in WW2 were the classic "bounce" where the victim was unable to visually spot the attacker or unaware of the impending attack.

 

Cheers!

[Extranajero]

And the idea of dot labels being unrealistic is crazy, in the context of WW-2 at least. Everyone on a public server is scooting around at treetop height because they know that it makes them very difficult to spot from above and gives them a way better chance of spotting another plane if it is silhouetted against the sky.

 

I have flown a lot on servers where the sky above a few thousand feet is completely empty until you get to 20k feet, where you may find some AI bombers.

 

Every real world set of rules for air fighting - until the dawn of the SAM - stresses height as being one of the fighter pilots primary advantages and aircraft development reflected this.

[Extranajero]

We prefer this approach. Over 80% of shootdowns in WW2 were the classic "bounce" where the victim was unable to visually spot the attacker or unaware of the impending attack.

 

Cheers!

 

YOU might prefer this approach, others might not.

 

Read my previous post and then think about this - you won't see an object if you aren't looking for it - riding a motorcycle has taught me that.

A grey dot is difficult enough to spot anyway and can get lost in terrain, overcast, against a dark sea. I'm not advocating for bright coloured labels here.

[=475FG= Dawger]

We prefer this approach. Over 80% of shootdowns in WW2 were the classic "bounce" where the victim was unable to visually spot the attacker or unaware of the impending attack.

 

Cheers!

 

At least you are honest about it.:thumbup:

[ViFF]

YOU might prefer this approach, others might not.

 

Sorry, maybe I should have explained when I use the word "WE" it is the community that I fly with. The vast majority of them have over 15 years experience in IL2 multiplayer servers, which also has an elaborate and highly customizable ability to configure how to show labels and dots.

 

During this time we weighed all the pros and cons of labels (be it the luminescent red blue as well as the grey and/or fading ones at close range) vs no labels. We ultimately decided that we prefer our own missions and external servers with no labels, and to this day it is one of the main options we check when deciding on which server we would spend our evenings.

 

Cheers!

[Extranajero]

Sorry, maybe I should have explained when I use the word "WE" it is the community that I fly with.

 

OK, I thought you might be one of those people who thinks everything should be done exactly their way. I hate being told what I can and can't do. Thankfully no-one like that has appeared on this thread yet. ;)

Phil's server is his own, and he sets the rules - as it should be. I think he's flat out wrong about spotting, but apart from that I appreciate everything he's done and continues to do for the online WW-2 flying community.

 

 

Interesting you mention that other sim, I have no issues with labels off spotting in it ( apart from it being difficult ) although one of the reasons spotting is easier is that it doesn't look as good graphically. If I wanted an online WW-2 dogfighting experience, then I'd just fly in that sim. DCS has much much more to offer me though.

But we aren't meant to talk about other flight sims...

[=475FG= Dawger]

OK, I thought you might be one of those people who thinks everything should be done exactly their way. I hate being told what I can and can't do. Thankfully no-one like that has appeared on this thread yet. ;)

Phil's server is his own, and he sets the rules - as it should be. I think he's flat out wrong about spotting, but apart from that I appreciate everything he's done and continues to do for the online WW-2 flying community.

 

 

Interesting you mention that other sim, I have no issues with labels off spotting in it ( apart from it being difficult ) although one of the reasons spotting is easier is that it doesn't look as good graphically. If I wanted an online WW-2 dogfighting experience, then I'd just fly in that sim. DCS has much much more to offer me though.

But we aren't meant to talk about other flight sims...

 

The reason my group doesn't fly in that "other" title is VR spotting is basically impossible. We were bored out of our skulls trying to find anything to shoot at for most of the time we flew in there.

 

Of course, we are a lot more focused on the fight and less on historical re-enactment. While a bounce should be possible, BFM is what we want and if some concessions must be made to encourage that, then they will be made.

 

I also have come to realize that the world has moved on and there is not a large PvP WWII BFM community anymore.

[Kercheiz]

My biggest complaint against VR is the unability to see the attitude of ennemy planes until you are very close. Yes, the dot is bigger and makes it easier to spot from long distance, but it stays a big dot when you get close.

 

 

If enemy plane dots are too small in 4K, just play in 2K :)

[SVgamer72]

Another game (named after the second global conflict with online appended to the end) had an interesting solution. I haven't played in years, but I assume it still exists...

 

A gray icon marker would only appear if you looked in a certain direction for a short period of time (to simulate focusing, and to prevent rapid scanning looking for icons vs planes), and if you looked away it would vanish until you repeated the process.

 

It is an elegant solution that solves the billboard icon issue, and at the same time addresses dot hunting.

 

.02

[=475FG= Dawger]

Another game (named after the second global conflict with online appended to the end) had an interesting solution. I haven't played in years, but I assume it still exists...

 

A gray icon marker would only appear if you looked in a certain direction for a short period of time (to simulate focusing, and to prevent rapid scanning looking for icons vs planes), and if you looked away it would vanish until you repeated the process.

 

It is an elegant solution that solves the billboard icon issue, and at the same time addresses dot hunting.

 

.02

 

WWIIOL Labels were pretty good but there is serious resistance to ANY sort of label in many DCS servers. I know because I have asked many server owners to consider adding some labels. They all basically said no, so now I have my own servers and fly with private groups that run labels on servers.

 

That is one of the issues we face in DCS. My server, my rules leads us to many servers with few players instead of all of making some compromises and gathering in one spot. If you hate labels, they can be turned off by individual players but no labels makes spotting in VR impossible.

[Extranajero]

I just don't understand the resistance to labels. I wonder if it's because many server owners don't understand the difference between the huge and horrible default labels - with all that text - and a carefully designed custom dot.

 

If it's " realism " then they are barking up the wrong tree.

 

I had experience of spotting aircraft in real life when flight training and once your brain is attuned to detecting an aircraft then you can spot them at greater distances than I can on my screen in DCS. In real life you are using all sorts of cues that don't exist in our computer world, so adding a dot to help seems like the best option to me.

 

I'm sure spotting will improve as DCS evolves, I'm not going to make any suggestions as to how because it's been done to death for years and I'm damn sure ED are considering a whole range of options. Or not :D

[streakeagle]

I am generally against labels. I have never used them in DCS playing offline. But after seeing how the dot implementation works on the Korea server with AI, I don't mind them.

 

As with anything there are tradeoffs. The goal is to simulate reality, but the available options don't achieve that. Without labels, spotting is unrealistically difficult and moreso with 4K monitors. The contrast and detail are all wrong. Additionally, visual identification of aircraft type and friend/foe is horrible until too close. Look at small civil aviation aircraft and airliners for reference of what ranges you can really see the wing and tail planforms and know what type of aircraft it is. Unless they are head on, it is quite some distance. But with labels, spotting is almost automatic at a certain range if someone has good scan discipline, not to mention odd visibility through clouds, etc. But I like how on the Korea server, I first see a dot. If I toggle labels off, I can still generally see the aircraft in VR (Rift S), but it is blurry and may not have enough contrast to be seen. Then as I get closer, the dot turns red or blue to provide IFF at realistic ranges: which is not only realistic to be able to distinguish aircraft types when the graphics won't let you even see the shape of an airplane, but it great for game play.

 

When I play online, I want the realism, but I also want to actually get into dogfights, not circle endlessly or get unfairly bounced due to the limitations of the graphics. So, I have reached a point where I don't mind dots being on or off. I am happy either way. I just don't want text names or ranges. "I'm Gumby, dammit! I'm flexible!"

[ouPhrontis]

I came to DCS for the better realism it has over the competition, I will avoid servers that have labels and so forth enabled.

 

As for not being able to see an aircraft that is flying low over ground clutter, both sides benefit from using that as cover and also both sides have the challenge of picking targets out from it.

[Shahdoh]

I came to DCS for the better realism it has over the competition, I will avoid servers that have labels and so forth enabled.

 

As for not being able to see an aircraft that is flying low over ground clutter, both sides benefit from using that as cover and also both sides have the challenge of picking targets out from it.

 

This is not true though, Depending on the visualization system (Flat screen vs VR or 1080p vs 4k resolution) you have will different capabilities of seeing the targets. Thus, labels, if done right, can equalize the playing field without detracting to much from reality.

 

So, right now it comes down to who has the right PC hardware to see the targets at the correct distances.

 

AND could be made even better if they would make just a couple changes to how labels are displayed as I have already mentioned.

[Extranajero]

As for not being able to see an aircraft that is flying low over ground clutter, both sides benefit from using that as cover and also both sides have the challenge of picking targets out from it.

 

Combat aircraft didn't habitually fly in the weeds until the late 60's, but on most DCS servers they almost always do, because it's a good place to hide while trying to skyline opponents.

 

During WW-2 and the dawn of the jet age absolutely no fighter aircraft designers were chasing low level flight performance, it was all about altitude.

 

I don't see the current situation on servers catering for WW-2 as being realistic - just the opposite really.

[jasonbirder]

Combat aircraft didn't habitually fly in the weeds until the late 60's

 

 

That's not because of relative spotting difficulty against the sky vs against the ground...

Its because in the real world planes have missions to perform be it strike, bombing, escort etc...often have access to off platform GCI and never rely on 1 ship or 2 ship unsupported flights...

The problem with players down in the weeds looking up for targets is not a "spotting" or a "label" problem per se...its that 1 or 2 ship flights trolling around looking for WVR combat against similar opponents simply isn't a thing...