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How much real is DCS plane model?


LtCol_Davenport

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This is an hard question I know, and I'll try to explain it as best as I can.

I'm not interested in anything (like ATC, Weapons, Ground Units, ecc..) except planes cockpit, lets say.

Obviously, I'm talking only about the high fidelity model.

 

 

I've done some research as always before opening this thread and ED stated more than once that all of their planes are based on publicly available information and (fortunately) they do not use any restricted data.

I also read that basic startup procedure, cockpit layout, buttons and their relative functions are generally available but what is displayed on MFDs are all classified, and in a couple of video that I found, pilots states that they can't even turn them on because are restricted information.

 

 

Having sad all of that, let's say that all WWII and more modern plane but with not much electronic (like L-39 or the C-101) are quite accurate.

But what about all the modern planes that are coming out now?

Just to name a few I can say F-16, F-18 or the new shiny JF-17 that is basically a giant screen with a couple of wings xD.

 

Are all the information displayed on those screen all assumption based on "what should be there" or are they actually correct?

I mean, I'm not pretending to be in a 1-1 replica of the plane, but I would like to know if:

 

  1. What we see on the displays is kind of accurate, but simply miss all of the function that are restricted and that we don't know are there
  2. Or if we know basically anything expect "that display should show weapons" and than they invent all the menus based just on that and try to make it more plausible as possible, but still based on assumption.

 

 

What turned me up was this story about screen's on planes that are classified and wanted to know if we are all learning the planes that ED thought it should be or the real plane (kind of), but if someone know more than me can expand this topic and talk about anything he/she think it's realistic or not, but still regardless the plane model, not all DCS World.

 

 

Just as a disclaimer, this is not a criticism, because if they can't have access to that kind of stuff is not their fault, it is just for information purpose only, since I spend lot of time (and money) in the game I would like to know what I'm into. :)

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AFAIK the F16 particularly has a lot of ex-servicemen active in the forums who will not hold back to comment if something stinks and I haven't seen much from them with regards to MFDs etc so must mean they are ok i guess...

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I don't believe the content of MFD screens are all classified - nearly all MFD pages for many many aircraft including Hornet, Harrier, and Viper are publicly available in NATOPS or equivalent documents. The Harrier's documents for example, which are unclassified, show pictures of most MFD pages in some form or another. Same with Hornet's.

 

 

I would venture to guess that pilots who claim they can't show the screens in videos because of classification are referring more to specific content on those pages like GPS coordinates or weapon stores information or sensor ranges that may inadvertently pop up in front of the camera, and they don't want to risk that classified data being shown. But it's that data, not the layout or function of avionics, that is protected.

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I'm only speaking for myself (and I don't have real access to anything) I'd say that as long as there are legally available declassified documents on those aircraft these planes are accurate.

I believe that when ED doesn't have enough official information about a particular system they don't make it interactable rather than make things up. A good example is the IFF system.

 

 

 

As for 3rd party devs, it's hard to say but I think (hope?) they do the same.

 

 

 

 

As for pilots saying that MFD info is classified I think it's just BS for simplicity's sake as some functions are classified and others aren't.

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I would venture to guess that pilots who claim they can't show the screens in videos because of classification are referring more to specific content on those pages like GPS coordinates or weapon stores information or sensor ranges that may inadvertently pop up in front of the camera, and they don't want to risk that classified data being shown. But it's that data, not the layout or function of avionics, that is protected.

 

Exactly this.

 

In the old days there were a couple of bits in the cockpit that we couldn't show to visitors - they either got a black cloth cover over them or they were just left powered off and glossed over (like "These are the engine instruments - fuel flow, temperatures and so on" without adding "And the super sensitive new navigation display that we can't talk about").

 

Poor example, though that piece of nav kit was so super secret that it was months before it was commercially available...

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I don't believe the content of MFD screens are all classified - nearly all MFD pages for many many aircraft including Hornet, Harrier, and Viper are publicly available in NATOPS or equivalent documents. The Harrier's documents for example, which are unclassified, show pictures of most MFD pages in some form or another. Same with Hornet's.

 

 

I would venture to guess that pilots who claim they can't show the screens in videos because of classification are referring more to specific content on those pages like GPS coordinates or weapon stores information or sensor ranges that may inadvertently pop up in front of the camera, and they don't want to risk that classified data being shown. But it's that data, not the layout or function of avionics, that is protected.

 

 

Oh that’s really interesting! I didn’t know that!

Anyway, if you are interested, there is for example on YouTube a cool video about a pilot that explain all the cockpit of the F-15 except the MFD claiming that she cannot turn them on.

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A good barometer on how closely guarded military technology is or is not is how specific aircraft are handled at airshows.

 

Case in point: The B-1B...

 

The first couple of years where they were on static display, they were surrounded by armed security forces, working dogs and signs warning about the use of deadly force.

 

After that, they stopped posting guards and dogs. Then they no longer put up ropes and you could walk underneath the jet. Then they opened the bomb bays.

 

And now, people line up for cockpit tours.

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Yes, exactly like Emmy said: in the 1980's, good luck finding out much of anything, beyond a Janes book page. In those days, finding actual fighter jet manuals... near impossible off of a base. And you might find yourself awkwardly trying to explain how you got it, and why you felt entitled to having it. The Cold War had a LOT of military things, even things seemingly of zero importance, were considered SECRET.

 

It's a very different world today where a member of the general public can just google a military weapons system of high complexity and strategic importance and just download the relevant manuals, and a company in Russia can get access to US miltary manuals and no one bats an eye... (well except for that one unlucky employee, but I'm just talking generally here.)

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Yes, exactly like Emmy said: in the 1980's, good luck finding out much of anything, beyond a Janes book page. In those days, finding actual fighter jet manuals... near impossible off of a base. And you might find yourself awkwardly trying to explain how you got it, and why you felt entitled to having it. The Cold War had a LOT of military things, even things seemingly of zero importance, were considered SECRET.

 

It's a very different world today where a member of the general public can just google a military weapons system of high complexity and strategic importance and just download the relevant manuals, and a company in Russia can get access to US miltary manuals and no one bats an eye... (well except for that one unlucky employee, but I'm just talking generally here.)

 

 

You are referring to the F-16 manual sold by an ED employee, right?

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You are referring to the F-16 manual sold by an ED employee, right?

 

That was just a bit of political bs. You can get the real manuals and or PDF's, just not send them out of the country by law etc.

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A good barometer on how closely guarded military technology is or is not is how specific aircraft are handled at airshows.

 

Case in point: The B-1B...

 

The first couple of years where they were on static display, they were surrounded by armed security forces, working dogs and signs warning about the use of deadly force.

 

After that, they stopped posting guards and dogs. Then they no longer put up ropes and you could walk underneath the jet. Then they opened the bomb bays.

 

And now, people line up for cockpit tours.

 

RIAT at RAF Fairford around 1980. Those exact signs warning of use of deadly force. The object of all this?

 

A C5 Galaxy.

 

Yes, really. Times do change...

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Yeah, the MFD stuff is bs. Even pilot manuals are available. HOW to OPERATE a system has relatively little value, security wise. ''Oh you push THIS button to fire a missile? FASCINATING'' What's much more relevant is the hard specifications of something, like blueprints for an engine (how many lbs of thrust or fuel it consumes is useless if you can't build it) or what frequency a radar operates on, what the smallest object it can detect is and at what range (how to turn it on and how to move the brackets to a target is useless). Reason? Every other country on the planet has a similar ''methodology'' for performing certain actions. How those actions are performed on the BACKEND is the secret part.

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Mostly true Zhuk... but...

 

If the other folks think the range of our radar is 100NM... and you flip on an MFD and you see the range of 2500NM...

 

Maybe it's just a number... Maybe it's actually that capable.

 

So... It could prompt you to look into it... whereas before that you didn't know what you don't know.

 

Now that you maybe know what you don't know... you re-allocate funds and maybe even assets in the developing company/department/bureau to take a look.

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Certain specific displays and numbers can and are often be classified for either tactical or strategic reasons. For example, there are a lot of video's released by various militaries where specific mfd info has been blocked out. Not surprised as someone has decided that the recorded information may allow a hostile intel service to figure some stuff out. The only thing in the old jet I flew that was absolutely verboten to photo, talk about, even admit it was there, was the nuclear consent panel.... for obvious reasons.

 

I think the ED folks have done a good job at producing models from the publicly available info from NATOPS and other like sources that are public. I know that there are addenda to all NATOPS that are classified but they are usually for specific weapons limitations and constraints, or for specific capabilities for certain weapons that are not advertised or publicly known. I do know that even the old aim-7 and aim-54 have modes that are not modeled in the sim and likely won't be as they are still classified.

 

The west is more open with it's info and that is why will will not likely see a true high fidelity model of any of the later migs or su's as even basic info on things like the 29 performance are still deemed state secrets and would likely cause ED to have problems even though the west has had a bunch of them to play with and that info is available. It's more than just having the info, there are real world constraints that we often don't think about, especially here in the west were we are used to living in a much more open society with ready access to information.

 

The bottom line is that ED have done a reasonable job on the most of the flight models even though they are not perfect, they are close enough to the published envelopes in most cases. If you want more realism, just add the essence of kerosene, vomit, and rubber to your computer area :-) g's, well that is another matter.

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The manuals are obsolete and/or incomplete. The stuff we find is what pilots use to learn the basics of the aircraft. Maybe there's system specific material out there but I haven't seen any yet. I'd bet there's pages the SuperHornet has that we haven't seen. The new AESA Radar is a prime example.

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