Since we have the LANTIRN, will the F-14B also get the RIO's MCAP display upgrade?

[key_stroked]

I've been watching Tomcat Tales which was just recently released by Speed & Angels Productions, and a section of the documentary has Capt. Dale "Snort" Snodgrass talking about the development of the LANTIRN pod and it's transition from a concept design to a pod used in an active combat theater.

 

He says that with the LANTIRN came a display upgrade that replaced the RIO's round TID. The new display was a 12x12 square display with more pixels that, according to Snort, matched the resolution of the LANTIRN pod and thus they had better clarity than the F-15E crews who were using the exact same LANTIRN pod (or F-18 crews who had the AN/AAS-38 "Nite Hawk" pod at the time).

 

I did some digging and came up with documented proof that they were putting these upgraded "MCAP" displays into F-14Bs as part of the LANTIRN pod.

 

Is the MCAP display something Heatblur has considered, or will consider, adding to the F-14B in DCS? The resolution while looking at the pod through the TID is poor, and if it's supposed to surpass the capability of F-15E and F-18 hornet aircraft pods at the time the real F-14B received the LANTIRN pod upgrade, I think it would be awesome if we got the display to match it in game.

 

Sources:

 

"Tomcat Tales" - https://www.speedandangelsproductions.com/tomcat-tales-ppv/

 

Navy FISCAL YEAR (FY) 2000/2001 BIENNIAL BUDGET

ESTIMATES (page 67) -- https://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Documents/00pres/proc/apn_ba_5_BOOK.pdf

 

Naval Aviation News Magazine (September-October 1996, "New Claws for the Tomcat") -- https://books.google.com/books?id=Hou28VrUeA0C&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=F-14+%22MCAP%22&source=bl&ots=I0MV39mhss&sig=ACfU3U0AIPYe58HTq9yNlbZfdWXbtvSNRg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjptMPf88rqAhVgHTQIHagcBt8Q6AEwA3oECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=F-14%20%22MCAP%22&f=false

 

Unverified forum post from a (then) RIO with the VF-102 Diamondbacks talking about F-14Bs with MCAP upgrades -- http://www.topedge.com/var/tomcat/001gbk.html

[QuiGon]

Isn't that display the PTID (Programmable Tactical Information Display)? If so, then it has already been discussed at length, if it can be implemented in DCS (together with the upgraded "Sparrowhawk HUD") and Heatblur decided against it as they wanted to model an early F-14B ("F-14A+"), because they have the best documentation on the early variant without the PTID/MCAP: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=226245

Yes, we're missing data on a lot of the pages and functions of the PTID.

 

Additionally, "Most of the LANTIRN equipped aircraft" does not mean all and we do want to include the LANTIRN even though we're not atm doing a PTID/PMDIG aircraft.

It would be awesome to eventually do a PTID Tomcat or even a -D Tomcat. Problem is that we're missing too much information to be able to do them justice.

 

For the PTID birds it's mostly data on the different PTID menus etc.

 

For the -D it's quite a lot in regards to MFDs and the AN/APG-71.

Edited July 13, 2020 by QuiGon

[TLTeo]

So that would basically require re-modelling and texturing the RIO seat, re-coding the LANTIRN and TID displays, and possibly include whatever functionality those buttons on the side of the monitor have?

 

Seems unlikely at best...

[QuiGon]

An interesting pic by pic comparison of the various Tomcat variants and their cockpits can be found here.

[key_stroked]

Isn't that display the PTID (Programmable Tactical Information Display)? If so, then it has already been discussed at length, if it can be implemented in DCS (together with the upgraded "Sparrowhawk HUD") and Heatblur decided against it as they wanted to model an early F-14B ("F-14A+"), because they have the best documentation on the early variant without the PTID/MCAP: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=226245

 

I haven't seen any references that F-14A+/B aircraft were combat operational using the LANTIRN with the old TID display.

 

I get that Heatblur doesn't want to make up stuff for a display they can't find documentation on, but maybe a happy medium is to increase the resolution of the LANTIRN display using the current TID.

While that's not accurate to history, neither is putting LANTIRNs on a plane without also coupling it with an upgraded display to support the functions of the pod.

 

Also, NAPTOPS for the F-14D shows PTID operation and sub page content. Is this not enough to properly simulate it in DCS?

Edited July 13, 2020 by Halcyon

[shagrat]

I haven't seen any references that F-14A+/B aircraft were combat operational using the LANTIRN with the old TID display.

 

(...) neither is putting LANTIRNs on a plane without also coupling it with an upgraded display to support the functions of the pod.

 

You need to look harder...

Recommended read Combat Aircraft Special Edition "F-14B Bombcat".

https://pocketmags.com/eu/combat-aircraft-magazine/f-14-bombcat

Also this little gem:

https://www.amazon.de/Black-Aces-High-Fighter-Squadron/dp/0312269161

[key_stroked]

You need to look harder...

Recommended read Combat Aircraft Special Edition "F-14B Bombcat".

https://pocketmags.com/eu/combat-aircraft-magazine/f-14-bombcat

Also this little gem:

https://www.amazon.de/Black-Aces-High-Fighter-Squadron/dp/0312269161

 

I don't own either of those. When I said I couldn't find anything, I was referring to free information sources.

 

*edit*

I bought both. I'll read the digital magazine today. The book comes in about 10 days.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Halcyon

[Naquaii]

I haven't seen any references that F-14A+/B aircraft were combat operational using the LANTIRN with the old TID display.

 

I get that Heatblur doesn't want to make up stuff for a display they can't find documentation on, but maybe a happy medium is to increase the resolution of the LANTIRN display using the current TID.

While that's not accurate to history, neither is putting LANTIRNs on a plane without also coupling it with an upgraded display to support the functions of the pod.

 

Also, NAPTOPS for the F-14D shows PTID operation and sub page content. Is this not enough to properly simulate it in DCS?

 

It would be nice to do what would effectively be a "newer" F-14B with CDNU, GPS, PTID, Sparrowhawk etc but as have been stated above we don't have complete info on matters relating to primarily the PTID menus and combat oriented symbology. And even if we did get a hold of that information it would not be a 100% sure thing as it would entail remodelling the RIO pit extensively.

 

The information regarding the -D does not show everything and is in many ways not relevant for the -B anyway as there were many other things differeing in that aircraft, not the least the radar.

 

What we do know is that the first LANTIRN implementations were using the old TID and were used if only for a short while.

 

In the end it was a decision between not having it at all or having it in this limited fashion and we decided to model it as we knew this configuration existed.

[key_stroked]

It would be nice to do what would effectively be a "newer" F-14B with CDNU, GPS, PTID, Sparrowhawk etc but as have been stated above we don't have complete info on matters relating to primarily the PTID menus and combat oriented symbology. And even if we did get a hold of that information it would not be a 100% sure thing as it would entail remodelling the RIO pit extensively.

 

The information regarding the -D does not show everything and is in many ways not relevant for the -B anyway as there were many other things differeing in that aircraft, not the least the radar.

 

What we do know is that the first LANTIRN implementations were using the old TID and were used if only for a short while.

 

In the end it was a decision between not having it at all or having it in this limited fashion and we decided to model it as we knew this configuration existed.

 

Would you consider increasing the resolution?

[uri_ba]

..

Edited July 14, 2020 by uri_ba

[QuiGon]

I actually really enjoy the rendering of the LANTIRN, including the low resolution, as it is really immersive and makes you feel the older tech compared to the modern LITENING II TGP of the A-10, F-16 and F/A-18. Heatblur did a really great job on the FLIR rendering of the LANTIRN :thumbup:

[Dudikoff]

Would you consider increasing the resolution?

 

And perhaps making the screen bigger and squared? Also, some buttons wouldn't hurt. I guess having those nifty buttons already, some functions could be assigned to those buttons then? You know, just for kicks and giggles.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Dudikoff

[RustBelt]

Give a mouse a cookie......

[Super Grover]

The resolution is limited by the pod not by the display.

[key_stroked]

The resolution is limited by the pod not by the display.

 

Then why do the real drivers from the Tomcat Tales documentary (and also the magazine article linked in the OP) say that even though F-15E and F-16 aircraft had the same pod, the F-14's resolution was better because they had a bigger screen with more pixels to display the picture?

 

And perhaps making the screen bigger and squared? Also, some buttons wouldn't hurt. I guess having those nifty buttons already, some functions could be assigned to those buttons then? You know, just for kicks and giggles.

 

Your unnecessary sarcasm aside, if the functionality of the MCAP PTID can't be properly simulated, at least the improved resolution can which many F-14s with the LANTIRN pod had during combat. Similarly, (afaik) the F-14 never carried the ZUNI rocket into combat, but Heatblur still gave it to us because the real jet could carry it.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Halcyon

[shagrat]

Then why do the real drivers from the Tomcat Tales documentary (and also the magazine article linked in the OP) say that even though F-15E and F-16 aircraft had the same pod, the F-14's resolution was better because they had a bigger screen with more pixels to display the picture?

Because the TID had a bigger display (as in "size does matter"). The fishbowl is pretty big, compared to a typical MFD. The same effect as if you compare a Full HD resolution Smartphone 5.8" screen to a Full HD resolution Laptop with a 12" screen. The smartphone is hard to read at arm's length whereas the Laptop is fine, despite the same resolution.

EDIT also keep in mind these where analogue displays not our modern flatscreens.

Edited July 14, 2020 by shagrat

[key_stroked]

Because the TID had a bigger display (as in "size does matter")

 

Right. This isn't what Super Grover had said. I was responding to him with that question, and you confirmed what I was asking.

[shagrat]

Right. This isn't what Super Grover had said. I was responding to him with that question, and you confirmed what I was asking.

No, he was very clear in his answer. The LANTIRN (specifically its IR-Sensor) is the same pod that was in use on the F-16 and F-15E. The resolution of the LANTIRN sensor is not different. That is exactly what he referred to. The resolution of the sensor is low, a higher resolution display won't change/enhance the IR-image. The benefit came with the larger screen.

LANTIRN was developed for the F-16 and its avionics and displays.

[CarbonFox]

When did they start implementing the hardware improvements to the F-14A and B models (TID, Sparrowhawk, etc)? I'm assuming around in the 1999-2003 timeframe.

[toilet2000]

Would you consider increasing the resolution?

 

 

The resolution limit is not because of the TID, it's because of what the LANTIRN pod had.

 

 

In fact, in DCS currently, the Hornet's LITENING (and most probably the one in the A-10C and the Harrier) have a much too high resolution. LITENINGs from the Hornet's time period should have a 512x512 FLIR resolution with 2 optical zoom levels (the Wide and Narrow zooms) and 10 digital zoom levels (the "zoom levels" actuated via the arrows on the DDIs or via the antenna elevation HOTAS controls). at zoom level 9 it should be something like 90x90.

 

 

Yes, the LITENING uses computer vision techniques to enhance the resolution and get a bit more than "90x90" in terms of actual information content, but it is still very limited.

 

 

This is actually something that HB went above and beyond to simulate: the zoom levels on the LANTIRN are digital only and thus the resolution gets pretty poor (since it's an older generation targeting pod) at max zoom level.

[Naquaii]

Then why do the real drivers from the Tomcat Tales documentary (and also the magazine article linked in the OP) say that even though F-15E and F-16 aircraft had the same pod, the F-14's resolution was better because they had a bigger screen with more pixels to display the picture?

 

 

 

Your unnecessary sarcasm aside, if the functionality of the MCAP PTID can't be properly simulated, at least the improved resolution can which many F-14s with the LANTIRN pod had during combat. Similarly, (afaik) the F-14 never carried the ZUNI rocket into combat, but Heatblur still gave it to us because the real jet could carry it.

 

We have modelled the LANTIRN as closely as we can with the info we have, we won't implement unrealistic capabilities for the chosen configuration.

 

The ZUNI rockets are a different matter, those were implemented and the F-14 was capable of using them, they just weren't so in that regard we're modelling a real function.

[Harlikwin]

The resolution limit is not because of the TID, it's because of what the LANTIRN pod had.

 

 

In fact, in DCS currently, the Hornet's LITENING (and most probably the one in the A-10C and the Harrier) have a much too high resolution. LITENINGs from the Hornet's time period should have a 512x512 FLIR resolution with 2 optical zoom levels (the Wide and Narrow zooms) and 10 digital zoom levels (the "zoom levels" actuated via the arrows on the DDIs or via the antenna elevation HOTAS controls). at zoom level 9 it should be something like 90x90.

 

 

Yes, the LITENING uses computer vision techniques to enhance the resolution and get a bit more than "90x90" in terms of actual information content, but it is still very limited.

 

 

This is actually something that HB went above and beyond to simulate: the zoom levels on the LANTIRN are digital only and thus the resolution gets pretty poor (since it's an older generation targeting pod) at max zoom level.

 

Yup LANTRIN, was basically a mechanically scanned FLIR "strip" type. None of this fancy 2D staring array stuff.

[Uxi]

The Sparrowhawk by itself seems the easiest, though yeah whenever I'm glancing through my copy of the DACO book, I lust harder for the Sparrowhawk and PTID. The MFD... seems like it was quite contemporary with the F-18 and have to duplicate the HSD and VDI functionality.

[r4y30n]

The SparrowHawk is kind of a packaged deal, though, right? E.g. an F-14B with the PTID may have the SparrowHawk but all SparrowHawk planes have PTIDs.

[QuiGon]

The SparrowHawk is kind of a packaged deal, though, right? E.g. an F-14B with the PTID may have the SparrowHawk but all SparrowHawk planes have PTIDs.

That's my impression as well.