How do I AAR?

[PL_Harpoon]

Congratulations!

 

 

 

The best way to deal with wake turbulence is to avoid it. Keep below the engines and you'll be fine.

 

 

As for losing contact with the basket I like to push it about a 1m forward.

[SharpeXB]

Granted, I was on the tanker for maybe 45 seconds at the longest connection (I've made several now), but it was glorious!

Aha! See now you’ve proven to yourself that it’s possible which is the first step :thumbup:

For wake turbulence, approach the tanker from the side like you would do in a flight and then stay under it and come up into the basket. You’ll avoid the wake that way.

[probad]

ive never hit wake turbulence tankering like how is it even possible

the vortices are nowhere near the basket

 

can anyone explain?

[randomTOTEN]

When I connect to a drogue I continue forward for perhaps 10'..give myself some room in case I start moving backwards before a disconnect occurs.

[rob10]

When I connect to a drogue I continue forward for perhaps 10'..give myself some room in case I start moving backwards before a disconnect occurs.

 

 

This ^^^, and I move UP a bit to give a little bit of room to drop. Not sure if it's the correct way to do it, but I like a little sag in the refuel drogue while I'm taking on fuel to allow me to have a little wiggle room for up/down/forward/backward to be able to react to some movement before I lose the hookup.

[AW139]

This time the CAPS and exclamation points are in celebration!

 

The difference maker for me was turning off WAKE TURBULENCE. First, I didn't realize I had it on and secondly in made the Hornet much more stable. Of course, I am a real world pilot and this is technically a cheat, but "baby steps". Eventually, I'll ween myself off and feel like a real man, lol.

 

Weird, I have never entered wake turbulence anywhere near the tanker. The only time I encounter it is if I’m dicking around and approach from right behind and above, and descend through behind them. Under normal refuelling conditions, I never encounter it.

[SharpeXB]

ive never hit wake turbulence tankering like how is it even possible

the vortices are nowhere near the basket

 

can anyone explain?

If you fly directly behind the tanker you’ll hit it.

[Magnate]

I'd endorse what others have said about VR - the huge improvement in depth perception makes this much easier and also more fun.

 

One piece of advice which I don't think I've spotted in other replies is not to try to learn this with a "clean" aircraft.

 

Do this with some external tanks, even some bombs and plenty of fuel. I may be imagining this, but I found that a heavy jet was more stable and so more forgiving of unwanted control inputs. The training mission has a clean jet, so I'd set up your own mission and give the aircraft a bit more mass.

 

Also, set the tanker to a relatively slow speed at first.

 

And once you're connected, continue to avoid any unnecessary control inputs. Less is more, when it comes to control inputs. Once you're experienced you will find yourself making constant inputs to throttle and stick, but these will all be tiny and done completely by reflex.

 

One other thing: try to build up a mental image of what your path to the basket looks like on your near misses. That way you'll be able to recognise quite early in your approach whether you're on track and so you can avoid unnecessary control inputs at that stage.

 

I learned to do this during a week off work between Christmas and New Year - many, many hours!

[equinox137]

I CAN'T DO IT! I JUST CAN'T DO IT. Refueling the Hornet is nearly impossible at this point!

 

I have flown the Hog for years and decided to transition to fast-movers. And yeah, it was hard to refuel on the Hog, but I was able to stabilize and hold station to get some gas. I had read where many people thought the Hog was the hardest plane to AAR. I had been doing it for a while and thought the Hornet would be a cake walk. BUT IT'S NOT, DAMMIT!!! The inputs are so sensitive that I can't be delicate enough to get the thing in the thing.

 

I make it a point to come in from work and fly the refueling mission with S-3 in the Persian Gulf a few times a week. And every time, I give up after running out of fuel a couple times and go bomb the crap out of something. But most of the time, I'm mad and I don't want to fly anymore which is sad. Because, I love flying in DCS so much. But the truth is, if I can't get on the tanker then I am not going to be mission effective. That's the cold, hard truth.

 

In the Hog, I had some visual points that I focused on through the HUD, but it seems there is nothing that I can find to use as a reference other than the S-3 tanker looking out the canopy (nothing I can use as reference through the HUD).

 

I tried all my tricks from the Hog:

1. Un-couple the throttle and walk it up.

2. Stabilize some distance back (this is my biggest problem, the plane WILL NOT FLY LEVEL) I trim, and trim some more, and trim again, but it keeps wanting to slide off to the left or the right. I cannot get the tanker static in the canopy. It is always moving a little bit.

3. I even flattened out my pitch and roll curves to 35 thinking that would dampen my movements, but no joy.

4. I attempt to keep the hose vertical in front of me, but the plane has a mind of its own.

 

It also seems I am lined up on the basket as I approach the basket goes under me almost everytime. It's frustrating as hell.

 

The advantage in the Hog is the boom will come to you to a degree and that helps. But the drogue is just there and you have to hit it.

 

I even watched a guy get all the tanker the first he ever tried refueling in DCS. I wanted to throw something at the monitor! It turns out he was a former fighter pilot, BUT STILL!!

 

I have watched as many videos as possible and they make it look sooooooooo easy. Have they beat their brains out like I am doing now?

 

"Yeah, stabilize behind the basket a few feet then nudge the throttle to engage it. There it is....(birds are singing in the background). Now, remember to make tiny movements on the stick and throttle to maintain position." (Yeah, at the atomic level!!!!)

 

Can someone please help me out here? I'll send a track if I have to (and someone show me how). I consider myself a decent pilot (after all, I have logged many hours in a real aircraft) and this is just a huge kick in the balls to my pride. Honestly, it is curved up in a fetal position crying for Mommy right now.

 

You can't. IT'S ****ING IMPOSSIBLE!

[Dragon1-1]

I have to say, I've refueled the Hornet, the Harrier, M-2000 (once), the Hog, the Viper (in the other sim) and the Eaglejet. All that with a CH Fighterstick. :) Some thoughts:

 

Air Force jets are easy. Even with KC-135 having its director lights way too dim, the boomer helping you is a huge boon. If you can see the lights, they make all the difference, so the Viper I'd consider easiest, Eaglejet has the slipway offset to the side, so actually keeping the correct left-right position takes some effort. With the Hog, it's easy to get fixated on the boom, because it's in your face, and instead of director lights, you've only got the colors on the boom, which don't tell you the whole story. This makes the Hog the hardest of the AF jets.

 

Now, the basket, this is another story. Of jets that use it, I've found the Harrier easiest, in part because you can't see the basket, and BalticDragon's excellent training mission cued me in on the right canopy cues. Also, its engine responds very quickly, being designed for VTOL, which makes refueling relatively painless (and that's a good thing, because the silly British thing has no legs at all :) ). Mirage was harder, and Hornet harder still, mostly because its engines react very slowly. Last time I tried, I used the speedbrake to help maintain the proper distance. When refueling the Mirage, for some reason I couldn't see the director lights on the KC-130, despite the fact it's supposed to have them, but when they work, they're great. As for the S-3, I hate it. Dinky little thing, with basically no envelope, and no director lights to help you maintain the correct position.

 

While left/right/up/down is manageable more or less everywhere (just mind the wake), the exact distance from the tanker that you must hold is the hard part, in my experience. A more precise throttle than my CH would help, but unfortunately, Warthog also has a relatively short throw, so I'm looking into a DIY solution with a realistic 30cm throw. However, the engine response time is always going to matter, and with the Hornet in particular, it's really bad. With a heavy and draggy jet, AAR is easier, because not only is it not as squirelly as when it's clean, drag will cause you to require more power to keep up with the tanker, putting you on a more optimal point on the engine's power curve, therefore giving you a faster throttle response. You can simulate that, to a degree, by extending the speedbrake, but it uses more fuel (which is invariably tight, or you wouldn't be hitting the tanker in first place!), so it's bad to make that a habit.

 

This was all in VR, BTW. It really does help when you don't have director lights, but if you do, there's no real difference. Either way, judging the distance and maintaining foreward-backward position is the hardest part.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Dragon1-1

[Habu_69]

Probably unrealistic, but hey, when you NEED gas..... I have found that engaging the F/A-18C autopilot is a great AAR assist. AP dampens the stick inputs.

[fagulha]

This time the CAPS and exclamation points are in celebration!

 

The difference maker for me was turning off WAKE TURBULENCE. First, I didn't realize I had it on and secondly in made the Hornet much more stable. Of course, I am a real world pilot and this is technically a cheat, but "baby steps". Eventually, I'll ween myself off and feel like a real man, lol.

 

I still get wonky if I let my mind wander and then I have to fall back a little to reset.

 

Granted, I was on the tanker for maybe 45 seconds at the longest connection (I've made several now), but it was glorious! Now I am noticing that the basket wants to float a little if I get too close and too far. The tanker is saying "contact" several times during these evolutions and I am trying to find the sweet spot to stay fully engaged. But hey, it's a quantum leap better than it was just the other day.

 

Thanks guys for all your input and advice. It is all very helpful. My wife happened by and I showed her the response I got from reaching out about AAR and she was amazed at the people willing to help someone in need. The DCS community has always taken care of each other. Honestly, we need a WHOLE lot more of that right now.

 

 

I have wake turbulence always on and never had a problem with it in AAR. So, it seems to me that one of your problems was the approach. You always, or most of the time, approach the tanker from the left wing and a little lower because of wake turbulence. If you approach behind you must be lower or else you suffer with the wake.

Keep practicing you´ll get there, believe me.

 

Best regards,

F.

[Bob_Bushman]

I have wake turbulence always on and never had a problem with it in AAR. So, it seems to me that one of your problems was the approach. You always, or most of the time, approach the tanker from the left wing and a little lower because of wake turbulence. If you approach behind you must be lower or else you suffer with the wake.

Keep practicing you´ll get there, believe me.

 

Best regards,

F.

 

I do exactly the same, a little low and from the side.

But for learning I don't think it's wrong to make things a little easier for yourself, often by having the tanker go a little faster.

 

I think the first few times I managed one the tanker was doing a godly 350kts.

 

Now I'm good even if the tanker is going 200kts in a circular orbit.

[jetsimace]

Can't agree more. I simply need some kind of AAR assistance within DCS - like an easy option or a cheat for AAR.

I prefer to use TrackIR and not VR, but in the current state AAR is just frustrating for me. I do love DCS (the whole franchise starting with SU-27 Flanker.), but do have other obligations in life so that I don't have the time for a daily "training".

[=Panther=]

I'll add another video to the growing list of how to videos. This is more a technique video, how I accomplish the task. Keeping it simple.

 

[BarTzi]

Can't agree more. I simply need some kind of AAR assistance within DCS - like an easy option or a cheat for AAR.

I prefer to use TrackIR and not VR, but in the current state AAR is just frustrating for me. I do love DCS (the whole franchise starting with SU-27 Flanker.), but do have other obligations in life so that I don't have the time for a daily "training".

 

I'm sorry that I have to be so direct, but if you don't have the time to train (it doesn't have to be daily), then don't go on sorties that might require AAR.

Following this route, we will eventually end up with automatic CASE I pattern breaks at the push of a button because people are too lazy to master that, automatic field landings because who needs to learn how to land, automatic formation flying, automatic CCIP, automatic BFM and so on.

Edited October 9, 2020 by BarTzi

[Mars Exulte]

Can't agree more. I simply need some kind of AAR assistance within DCS - like an easy option or a cheat for AAR.

I prefer to use TrackIR and not VR, but in the current state AAR is just frustrating for me. I do love DCS (the whole franchise starting with SU-27 Flanker.), but do have other obligations in life so that I don't have the time for a daily "training".

 

It doesn't require ''daily'' training. It requires ''consistent'' training, same thing as in real life. 2-3 times a week preferably, 30-45 minutes a session. That is also the suggestion for real life training schedules. Less doesn't do you any good. More makes people susceptible to burnout.

 

DCS, by nature, REQUIRES a person be willing to practice and learn just as much as it requires a HOTAS and high end PC. It actually is an even higher priority, because you can technically eek out an existence with a keyboard and a potato, but you will never get anywhere even with the best equipment if you don't have the right attitude. A person unwilling to learn needs to find another hobby. That's not ''elitist'', it's just the reality. These planes have 600+pg manuals. That's a real big flashing red caution sign that some effort will be required.

 

 

As for wake turbulence, I can only assume people are screwing up their approaches and position. I've refueled half the planes in the game, including Harriers and F-18s, and not had any problem with wake turbulence. If you're rolling or buffeting around, either on approach or when in the basket/boom, you are, by definition, in the wrong position. Case and point, one guy earlier saying the basket kept passing beneath him... he's waaaay too high, and is def going to be in the turbulent air.

 

Don't rush the AAR. Approach, stabilise (ie fly in formation holding your position just away from the basket/boom) THEN approach. If you haven't stabilised yet, you shouldn't be trying to connect. You're not going to be able to fly hands free, trim to REDUCE effort, not eliminate it. People need to stop thinking they can trim a plane and then be handsfree. Lastly regarding the tanker, whether it's circular or straight line, or what have you, it's all exactly the same. People are looking at the horizon instead of the tanker. If you're wings level with the tanker, you're wings level with the tanker, whether straight, 15 or 60 degree banking turn, or upside down. Ignore the horizon, the tanker is all that matters.

[notproplayer3]

I can give you some tips that helped me a lot, firstly lock the refueling plane on your radar, you'll get a cue that will tell you your relative speed with the tanker, it's useful when approaching it.

And secondly, put on altitude autopilot, it "dampens" your movement I feel like. Try this out, really makes refueling a whole lot easier in my opinion even though that's not the right way to do it.

[jetsimace]

Many thanks for all the good and well-intended hints and tips, but I simply do not understand why asking for an easy OPTION or an OPTIONAL cheat for AAR urges so many to insist that DCS has to stay a pure hardcore simulation.

I do fully agree, but a simulation also has to have some options to tweak and adapt the user experience on an individual basis. In the same sense one could say to those denying such a request: get out of your armchair, get a significant amount of (including physical!) training and apply for you nation's airforce, because this is the only way to experience "the real thing"...

[BarTzi]

Many thanks for all the good and well-intended hints and tips, but I simply do not understand why asking for an easy OPTION or an OPTIONAL cheat for AAR urges so many to insist that DCS has to stay a pure hardcore simulation.

I do fully agree, but a simulation also has to have some options to tweak and adapt the user experience on an individual basis. In the same sense one could say to those denying such a request: get out of your armchair, get a significant amount of (including physical!) training and apply for you nation's airforce, because this is the only way to experience "the real thing"...

 

I don't think anyone suggested it has to stay purely hardcore. What I will say, is this: assuming you have the gear and no physical disability, AAR in DCS is not complicated. It's not rocket science, and if you can do formation flying you are 60% there anyways.

It's something that anyone on these forums can learn if they choose to. It doesn't take a crazy ammount of hours to get decent at it either.

 

DCS map size and mission scale allows you to have a choice and not do it. You are almost never forced to use AAR in a mission. If you are not good at it, either learn how to do it or don't do it at all.

 

What you are asking for is a short cut. You are asking the entire platform to change, and the skill ceiling to be lowered 'just because' you don't want to invest the time. I'm sorry, but if you are not physically incapable of doing it, there's no reason for the devs to spend time on this. As I said before - AAR is just the start. Soon people will be asking for autonomous carrier landing from the stack all the way down.

Edited October 9, 2020 by BarTzi

[Doum76]

Many thanks for all the good and well-intended hints and tips, but I simply do not understand why asking for an easy OPTION or an OPTIONAL cheat for AAR urges so many to insist that DCS has to stay a pure hardcore simulation.

I do fully agree, but a simulation also has to have some options to tweak and adapt the user experience on an individual basis. In the same sense one could say to those denying such a request: get out of your armchair, get a significant amount of (including physical!) training and apply for you nation's airforce, because this is the only way to experience "the real thing"...

 

 

Are you actualy thinking before asking things?Really? Have you ever browse through the forums, and actuay stoped and read about the bugs people ask ED to fix, some for long years, some new, some that comes and go, have you read all the people bashing and whining on ED either on the forums or Facebook, have you reaf the roadmap to what they plan to do, to either finalise some modules or even get them out of the EA states?

 

 

Now you would ask ED to create a new behavior, yes it doesn't compute as easy, it's not just a click on my MMORPG firend's cartoon and select « Follow ». You are asking ED to create a system that would follow the tanker anywhere (im not a dev, but i am sure it involves way more thna only use the AI's behavior to refuel and apply it to players flyable aicrafts), follow the BOOM or Drogue Basket systems, cuz of course, gotta please both world, to connect to it, to follow the new behavior they are trying to implement because, let's face it, the majority of this Sim community want realism, so the wing wakes etc is what people are please of, so you want your new system to counter this, like an autopliot, but requires a fully proggrames AI to do it.

 

 

You know many people, able to AAR is like an accomplishment, you think ED will waste all this time, skip all the core stuff needed to be done in the game/modules, for maybe not even 10% of the DCS community?

 

 

As previous post said, you are not FORCE to do it, you can avoid it, there is so many airfields around, carrier you can drop anywhere you want, airfield, that YOU can decide which is firend or foe, versus real life, you can't even land where ever you want. The possibility to avoid AAR is so huge.

 

 

Yes it's a pain to learn and as post up said, if you have the hardware (to be honest if you play with your keyboard and mouse, sorry, but asking ED to do something for that is a bit dumb) or if you are not disabled, anyway i am sure quite a few people on here with some disabilities ever does AAR. Again is a matter of try. If i can do it, anyone can. And if your arguement is, « i don't have the time to learn it », well, just don't do it.

 

 

We already have autostart, which is, a huge huge step toward making the game not so hardcore as you say, we got options to set game as Sim or Game in controls etc... That's already a lot, but asking to create a sorta AI behavior to auto refuel, what's the point? One of the most impressive cool feature of the game for me in early 2010 when i discovered the game, was to fly online with other people to do formation flying, if at this state you want AI to fix this, might as well wish for ED to model a « Northrop Grumman X-47B » you'll be please.

 

 

Sorry if it sounds rude, but sometimes, i find ourselves the community so freaking hard to satisfy, we are sorta all selfish, we are all want our own little wishlish, not carring for others and bitching at Developpers not to please our own all little tiny persons.

 

 

But keep faith, maybe ED will hear ya and one day, they'll start to work on this and will break otehr core elements in order to implement this weird behavior that will for sure cause issue in Multi-Player with dumb people flying all over you.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Btw, if fuel is so much an issue for you and realism doesn't matter that much, in the Mission Editor, you can check Unlimted Fuel or i think even in your own Game Settings, fixes all the issues. ;)

Edited October 9, 2020 by Doum76

[Mars Exulte]

@Doum

I'm 99% certain they could not simply using the AI behavior 1 to 1 since the player and AI planes do not share the same flight model or mechanics, it is presumably literally impossible to do it that way.

 

They'd either have to code it to temporarily switch to the AI FM whem the sytem was engaged so the AI could do it, or code an entirely new AI capable of AAR on the fully modeled aircraft. Of the two, only the first is likely to be done, and still probably would be a pita to do.

[oldcrusty]

Many thanks for all the good and well-intended hints and tips, but I simply do not understand why asking for an easy OPTION or an OPTIONAL cheat for AAR urges so many to insist that DCS has to stay a pure hardcore simulation.

I do fully agree, but a simulation also has to have some options to tweak and adapt the user experience on an individual basis. In the same sense one could say to those denying such a request: get out of your armchair, get a significant amount of (including physical!) training and apply for you nation's airforce, because this is the only way to experience "the real thing"...

 

I'm having hard time understanding 'easy' AAR option. What exactly would it do? Dumb down the controls? We can do this by playing with the stick curves. It's a compromise. If you bend the curves a lot, you'll be able to finesse the approach to the tanker (provided your form flying is on a descent level) but... this curve may not be best suited for other aspects of combat flying.

 

What else could the easy option be? Lining up 500ft behind the tanker and hitting the button?

You'll never learn anything that way.

 

I think guiding the jet to the pre-connect position (few feet away from basket) is fairly easy as far as stick input is concerned. Past that point, the throttles play a very important role.

Any throttle movement will cause VV to creep up or down immediately so only very tiny power adjustments. On top of that, if your tanker is flying an orbit, any tiny change in bank will cause VV to drop a tiny bit when you bank more and come up when you roll back up. It's not the slip, more of a lift vector component change. The AI tanker is on rails... it flies differently. That's why I thought initially that the tanker was messing with me on purpose:D

 

If by 'easy option' you mean the jet sort helping you aim at the basket while smoothing out power inputs so visually everything looks cool, say for video making? I guess they can come up with 'stuff' like that but... would it really be fun?

 

I would like to see an improvement in basket physics though, I want to see the results of it smacking the canopy or... separating from the hose:D

[ruddy122]

IRL a stable pre contact position will give you a stable contact position

 

My best advice as a former KC-10 IP is patience and you’ll hit the basket and refuel

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ruddy122]

A common thing I see is that they go too low and become a unicorn that is pilot for saying you snapped off the basket or left your probe in there

 

 

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