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Mirage III


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No, Razbam should focus on the products they already got the customers money for and which are not matching their sales description.

 

regards,

 

Snappy

 

 

Aye Mate...

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Lets put it this way. The AMX is agood replacement for the aging A-4s Skyhawks.

 

 

It's not replacing the A-4s, which belongs to the Navy and were supposed to be operated in the NAe Sao Paulo. The AMX is an Air Force project in cooperation with Italy. Both were being modernized. The AMX was to finally receive its Scipio radar. Things have changed somehow and we'll see if their modernization projects continue.

Banned by cunts.

 

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No, Razbam should focus on the products they already got the customers money for and which are not matching their sales description.

 

regards,

 

Snappy

 

I don’t own any other RAZBAM modules and am not interested in buying any, so from my POV any development of them is wasted.

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“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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  • 1 year later...
On 8/2/2020 at 4:55 AM, Bozon said:

 

Mirage III is from an age when pilots actually controlled flight surfaces, missiles were for show and the kills were done with cannons. Mirage 2000 is from the age of computer flown planes, BVR combat like flying SAMs, and cannons are installed for the nostalgia.

 

This guy gets it!

 

Not to knock the '2000, or it's fancier missilz... but the Mirage III is iconic like a Sabrejet or Phantom, known around the world... it's got history. No MFD pages to memorize, it was about airmanship, fighter piloting skills, and an instinct to hunt enemy jets... no datalink pages, you had to know the situation mentally from the radio calls, and knowledge of your battle plan and enemy. 

There's something about using cannons to dogfight that you miss out on with effective BVR engagements. 


Edited by Rick50
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49 minutes ago, rpg1964 said:

If you do a Mirage III please make sure you do an E/O version. Something like the attached.

AS much as I would like A Mirage 3/5/50 module I would rather see RAZBAM complete the F-15E, Emb 314 ST( YES I realize that Ecuadorian AF Contract takes precedence). Get the Mig 23 MLA module moving. I also hope to see EE Lightning be developed after the Mig. And has I live about 40 minutes drive from RAAF Williamstown. I would dearly love to see a RAAF "Miracle" (RAAF Nickname for the 3s). Just don't see RAZBAM delivering within a decade at earliest.

PS when ED finally delivers ground crew can we at startup, have a guy go around the front and chuck a bucketful of jet fuel into the intake;). Old RAAF startup Procedure:).

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15 minutes ago, GUFA said:

... I would rather see RAZBAM complete the F-15E, Emb 314 ST. Get the Mig 23 MLA module moving.

 

I'm very certain that the Beagle is inbound soonish, that the Mig and Tuc probably after that... long before a new Mirage gets started!

IF it gets started... as It's not clear Raz will make a full fidelity Mirage 3, I just want it!

I guess my issue is just that Raz have teased SOO SOO many possible future projects, I want them to focus on certain topics more than others. As interesting as the IA-58 Pucara is, with the free mod being available, I'd rather they try the Mirage 3 and EE Lightening... in that order!

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3 minutes ago, Rick50 said:

Mirage 3, I just want it!

Yeah  I want it so baaaad!

I did post this on the Aerges page yesterday

I really hope that Aerges next FF module/s are the Dassault Mirage 3/5/50 for a couple of reasons.

Despite seeing some cg picks of Argentine Mirage 3 from RAZBAM. RAZBAM itself seems to be denying that they are developing a Mirage 3  anytime soon. As far as I understand they are developing an AI model Mirage 3 Argentine spec as part of The South Atlantic Asset Pack.

The Mirage 3 was used by the Spanish Air Force under the designation C. 11 at the start of 1970s. For those that are lobbying for F-104 Starfighter numbers acquired were roughly the same (slightly more mirages acquired). Neither would be hard for Aerges to develop as getting hold of Subject Matter Experts for both would be easy both from a builder and user perspective. I just think that an Aerges Mirage 3/5/50 would be the way to go because:

A: India Foxt Echo VS seems to be leaning in the direction of developing a F-104 module after they finish the G-91. Seeing that the G-91 isn't a particularly complex aircraft (technically speaking) they may well be able to Build the F-104 quite quickly. 6S Duke seems to be teasing an IFE F-104s. Personally I would definitely love a F-104s-ASA chucking Sidewinder and Aspides in the sandbox.

image.jpeg

Just make sure to Add the underbody Sidewinder rails:)

Zipper with UB Launch Rails.jpg

 

B: For Aerges the Mirage 3/5/50 the already have half built these Mirages when they built the F-1. The Atar in the F-1 is an update/upgrade of the 3's engine not a "Clean sheet" design. The Radar in the F-1 is an evolution of the 3's sensor (Thomson CSF Cyrano Ibis for the 3 with Cyrano 4 equipping the F-1). The main work for Aerges would be in the flight model not the engine/sensor.

These factors indicate to me (obviously not a software developer) that an Aerges developed 3/5/50 could be developed quite quickly. And Having a Mirage 3 in a shorter development timescale (3-4 yrs for a 3 with a 5 and a 50 following later). I would probably go this route, A Radar Mirage 3 first, a Glass nose 5 second and a 50 third. Leave the "Zipper to IFE, hopefully they can get an F-104s- ASA in 5-6yrs after the "Gina".

AND JUST BE CLEAR A KFIR IS NOT A MIRAGE 3.

RAAF_Mirage_III_(78-438976).jpg

 

I" want both but this plan would (hopefully) get us both faster

So do you think this route is a "better" route forward for our beloved "Miracle"? Tell me what you think

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True, Kfir and Mirage are not the same... but I think they are similar enough that a dev who's done one could probably to the other well and maybe save a little time.

Similarly, Aerges have proven themselves with the F.1 so yes, they would be great for the Legendary Mirage 3!

For me, I don't have clear dev team preferences, because ED has a say in quality control. And with the difficulty of making FF modules, I'm confident that when a product reaches 3 months into early access, it's probably in pretty good shape. No, not "perfect", and lacking features, but also not a model that vaguely resembles something sorta like the intended product, nor that flies like a UFO, or omnicience like an otherworldly being people worship!

Sooo... IMO if someone takes on the subject matter and pushes hard to complete, that meets my criteria!

 

Of course experience matters, but sometimes devs are wildly successful right on the first try too, so no, I'm not against anyone taking a try at the Legendary III !


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G'day Rick

19 hours ago, Rick50 said:

Kfir and Mirage are not the same... but I think they are similar enough that a dev who's done one could probably to the other well

I don't really think that would work because A: They started life with 2 different engines, The ATAR (which is present already in the F1 in a significantly upgraded form) as opposed to the J 79 in the Kfir Here are the thrust ratings:

SNECMA Atar 09C afterburning turbojet engine, 41.97 kN (9,440 lbf) thrust dry, 60.8 kN (13,700 lbf) with afterburner

IAl Bedek-built General Electric J79-J1E turbojet, 52.9 kN (11,900 lbf) thrust dry, 79.62 kN (17,900 lbf) with afterburner

And I'll even include the Atar out of the F-1

SNECMA Atar 9K-50 afterburning turbojet engine, 49.03 kN (11,020 lbf) thrust [152] dry, 70.6 kN (15,900 lbf) with afterburner

So off the bat the Kfir has 4000+pounds (in Afterburner) and I just think that way to much of a gap if simply modding a Mirage 3. Also The Kfir has the Canards which means the flight models changes. Now I'm no flight dynamic expert, but I think this is also to far of an alteration on flight performance. Also not having looked at it myself, will the Kfir be of a mid/late configuration. The C.7 variant had HOTAS (yes I see the Irony) and if they go for a C.10 Variant then the original Thomson-CSF Cyrano II dual mode air / ground radar (A much earlier variant of the radar already on the F-1) gets replaced with a Elta EL/M-2032 + MFDs, 2 new hard pionts.

As I said earlier "A Kfir is not a Mirage 3" and I say both can and should be separate FF modules. Besides if Aerges do develop the Mirage 3/5/50 family the radar and engine are already pretty much sorted. And the Mirage 50 is essentially a delta winged F-1.

Besides Aviron can build the Sufa, Ra'am, Stallion Delta and/or my favorite whirlybird, AH 1 Tzefa (Want a Cobra single just as mush as the Miracle).

 

 

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12 hours ago, GUFA said:

I don't really think that would work because A: They started life with 2 different engines, The ATAR (which is present already in the F1 in a significantly upgraded form) as opposed to the J 79 in the Kfir

So off the bat the Kfir has 4000+pounds (in Afterburner) and I just think that way to much of a gap if simply modding a Mirage 3. 

As I said earlier "A Kfir is not a Mirage 3" and I say both can and should be separate FF modules.

 

I KNOW they have different turbines, and canards and such... what's that got to do with a dev team being able to make two modules that are SIMILAR ?!?!

Heatblur made two planes that are wildly different, and a variant with a much different engine too... no one questioned whether they could do so. Razbam made a Mirage, a Mig, a Harrier jump jet and even a helicopter... ED made several helis, two "Swiss Army Knife fighter jets" and many other modules, which are wildly dissimilar from each other. 

I'm simply pointing out that if a dev team has proven itself capable of doing either a Kfir or a Mirage, they are "probably" capable of doing it's "distant cousin" too.  But I NEVER suggested it be a quick modification, that was your assumption of what I meant.

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On 10/4/2022 at 12:36 PM, Rick50 said:

I'm simply pointing out that if a dev team has proven itself capable of doing either a Kfir or a Mirage, they are "probably" capable of doing it's "distant cousin" too.  But I NEVER suggested it be a quick modification, that was your assumption of what I meant.

First off, allow to apologies if you felt I was putting words in your mouth (referring to the modding statement) I am sorry. I was simply saying that a Kfir based module would be to far apart across the flight envelop, minimum. let alone how it handles on the ground( Kfir is primarily a 'Striker' so were canards added to improve MTOW performance?). Or the cockpit layout (are all the control switches for the J79 the same as the Atar?.

Right Know the Kfir is a (very) early in development FF Module. So I would say 4 years minimum to get the Kfir into early access at least. Aviron are the new kids on the block so I would say 5 years minimum to release the Kfir. If RAZBAM or other existing developer do it, they will have to start at the beginning so that that would mean we wouldn't see a FF Mirage 3 (from RAZBAM at least) for another decade.

This is why I'm passionately pushing/lobbying for an Aerges Mirage 3/5/50 module/s. Right know there is a poll  running on the Aerges:

Now as far as I know this isn't an official 'Aerges' topic but the results so far place 2 aircraft in the lead. In first (slightly) is the F-104c, and in second is the Miracle. Know I am attempting to lobby the community to vote for the Mirage 3, I do own that for better or worse. And do I want another developer to do 2 of the F-104 model/s (F-104 has always been one of my most favorite fighters since childhood).

 Now how long until the F-1 doesn't need most/all of the Aerges team to do major bug fix's I don't know. But I am Confident that Aerges can look to move to its next module very soon. I believe the simple fact is that Aerges above all others is the best option (by far) for a Mirage 3, because the already have modeled the engine and radar for the Miracle. They are more advanced versions yes, but they are Atar 9 series Engines and Thomson-CFS Cyrano radars and that should in itself have a significant impact on the development schedule. Cockpit layout should be fairly close so this also shaves time of development.

I simply want people who want the Mirage 3/5/50 family in game and Quickly that supporting an Aerges FF module  is the best way to go. The only module maker that can compete on the timelines I'm thinking of are Eagle Dynamic's themselves. And I don't believe that they can A: deliver a Miracle Faster. And B: ED have made statements in the past that they prefer working on the more advanced 4 gen anyway.

Let me  also make it abundantly clear also, If RAZBAM (or other developer) announces tomorrow they hold the license for an FF Mirage III then I Don't see anyone delivering said module for 5 years minimum and likely a whole lot longer. Beside if Aviron make a Miracle FF module and stuff it it up, Imagine the "<profanity>storm" that would come afterwards🥵🤬💥.

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First, apology accepted, I know I've sometimes made the same type of common  mistake!  :thumbup:

 

As for the rest, a few observations:

 

I think module development speed can vary quite a bit,  team size, experience, ability to coordinate and cooperate might be amazing or... compromised, sudden major challenges might be more easily adapted to than for other teams, and the subject topic itself (the aircraft being dev)

 

Some forum members seem to be optimistic about development time, seemingly thinking that some modules only take 5 months to make, despite evidence that the Hornet is roughly nearing the 5 year mark.  That said, I think a module like the Mirage 3 might realistically be completed by an efficient dev team in maybe 2 years, much like the Mi-24 Hind... I  mean, in complexity the M3 is no ViperHornet

 

Maybe the biggest variable to making such modules might be simply legally acquiring documentation about the aircraft/weaponsystem,  and permission to make it into a retail entertainment product... might be easy and super fast for one project, and so lengthy and essentially permanently stalled for another. 

 

This is the Razbam sub-forum, might be seen as "poor form" to be heaping praise on, and advocating for other companies...


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Razbam have a knack for choosing to develop cool models I am not likely to buy. Following this trend they won’t make Mirage III.

I have high hopes from Aviron. If they do pick up the Mirage III at least they for sure will do the correct variant - IIIcj.

Aerges are good developers - they will do a Spanish Mirage III, but I can live with that.

Having said that, I will buy any FF Mirage III variant from any developer.

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“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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58 minutes ago, Bozon said:

If they do pick up the Mirage III at least they for sure will do the correct variant - IIIcj.

Nah, thanks.

I'd rather have one based on the E with more capability. The C(J)is fun for playing in the sand and sun. But without disdain I'd also like to dance in cloud and rain.

So ein Feuerball, JUNGE!

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  • 2 months later...
On 9/15/2020 at 8:07 PM, Snappy said:

 

No, Razbam should focus on the products they already got the customers money for and which are not matching their sales description.

 

regards,

 

Snappy

Agree, there are still many buttons on MiG-19P that don't work properly. The MiG-19S they promised is still nowhere to be seem.

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My Adorable Communist Errand Girls  🙂

Led by me, the Communist Errand Panda 🥰

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I'm a big proponent of aircraft from the 1956-80 period and I'm very sympathetic to the ongoing trend in DCS towards Cold War simulation. In view of the upcoming introduction of new modules like Mig-19S, Mig-23MLA, F-4E, F-100D, A-7E but also the Sinai map, a Mirage III/5 would be a great addition to the DCS community. The Mirage III/5 was an extremely successful airplane series. It has served with over 20 air arms around the world. It had a long successful career from 1962 until well into the 90s. In action in major conflicts: Indo-Pak Wars 1963-71, 6-Day War 1967, Yom Kippur/October War 1973, Libya-Sirte 1972, Falkland/Malvinas 1982. Many of these scenarios can be represented with the maps Syria, South Atlantic and the upcoming Sinai.

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1 hour ago, Baco said:

My favorite tho is the Mirage 5 or better yet IAI Dagger.

 

Yes, I'd much prefer a Mirage 5 than a III, as it saw more widespread service and it's more suited for air/ground missions.

For now, I have to fly it in the form of VSN Mods:

 

zbd00YA.jpg

 

fCYTg8E.jpg

 

... but I'd purchase any official Module of this aircrafts right away ... currently enjoying the Mirage F1, which Aerges crafted superbly 🙏

 

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15 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Yes, I'd much prefer a Mirage 5 than a III, as it saw more widespread service and it's more suited for air/ground missions.

For now, I have to fly it in the form of VSN Mods:

 

zbd00YA.jpg

 

fCYTg8E.jpg

 

... but I'd purchase any official Module of this aircrafts right away ... currently enjoying the Mirage F1, which Aerges crafted superbly 🙏

Yeah I know the Mods but so far they are UFOs, not as developed as the F 104 or the A4.. (the Phantom is still a UFO too) I know all VSN mods...

 

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