Official F16 Survey

[FoxOne007]

Even with the HTS and HARM the F-16CM will still be an inferior SEAD/DEAD platform to the JF-17 simply because the LD-10 (2012) is so much newer and better than the AGM-88C (1993). I would love if we got the AGM-88D (2003) or even AGM-88E (2010).

Let's not involve a jet with unrealistic performance that was solely built of a wikipedia page

[cauldron]

Let's not involve a jet with unrealistic performance that was solely built of a wikipedia page

 

Lol, no bias here.:music_whistling:

[Kev2go]

Lol, no bias here.:music_whistling:

 

Although it may come of as hyperbole, he does has a point though. There is no publicly available data on the JF17, whereas on the F16 you can find various manuals, be it basic FM, , weapons, or maintenance/ supplement related. ( even if its not the most up to date or for the specific circa 2007 version in DCS) thus ensuring that the community is in a position to fact check and better contribute by making better researched bug reports based on primary source information. With JF17 we have no choice but to trust Dekka at face value, whatever thier sources or how many sources they may be. However given some of their weapons performances , Namely SD10 vs Aim120C, makes their modelling questionable. There is a reason why ED declared that from now on only they will be allowed to model missile dynamics.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Kev2go

[kingsnake11]

Not sure if this is so far off from RL.... if you read the Book from Dan Hampton he statet that he fired many Harms but to this day didnt know if even a single one of them actually hit the target.

Maybe the truth is somewhere inbetween the guaranteed hit weapon like in those other sim and something like a 50/50 chance.

 

Probably because in real life you don't hang around and press the f6 button to see if it hits. You would only know if the SA shows the radar off...and even then you wouldn't necessarily know if it was hit, or the operator turned it off because they knew they were/or would likely being/be targeted. You might be able to get an educated guess by correlating the TTT and when the radar went off...but if you're busy flying out of a dangerous situation...you probably have other priorities.

[kingsnake11]

Turkey and Israel seem to have no problem

 

There may be a problem here because we only know that certain types of missiles and rockets seem to be easily intercepted. My view is that the SAM systems in DCS are probably a little too effective in shooting down incoming AGM's. I've even seen them shoot down an AMMRAM which I don't think is very likely. Shooting down a scud or a med/high altitude cruise missile is also quite possible to intercept but they don't seem to have much of a shot at low altitude fast AGM.

 

Some recent real world examples...the Iranian/Houthi strike in Saudi Arabia with low level cruise missiles that the patriot and hawk batteries were effectively not capable of dealing with. The result of which was a visit from USAF generals and technical people to assess what went wrong.

 

The Israeli strikes into Syria where although the Syrians claim to have shot down incoming missiles, enough get through to hit their targets effectively. What we don't know and are not yet in DCS, are if what the sams are hitting aren't Tilads or some other type of decoy that beg the sam to hit them. Early examples of these were modeled in the old Jane's F-18 sim and could be really effective. I can't believe any force would go into a sam heavy environment without these. And there is that famous Israeli strike video of sams being shot multiple times from the most sophisticated Russian point defense sam system (SA-22 I believe) at an incoming AGM and missing and then seeing it being taken out by another AGM. Result was a visit by top Russian generals with a herd of technical staff to figure out what went wrong.

[FoxOne007]

I forgot to add this at the end of the survey but seeing as the GBU-54 is now making it's way into DCS would love to see that (and maybe the GBU-39 SDB) added to the Viper as well

[Datajack]

Oh man. Jane's F/A-18. That was one of my favorite sims. My first virtual squadron was back in that sim. I was also an original member of Team Superhornet back in the day. I wrote a tool for it called the Art Manager.

 

Anyways I have to agree with you Kingsnake11. I'm certainly not an expert on the subject, but it just seems to me that any system just cannot be that effective. I believe Generals and technicians going out in both cases is just for show. I think they know their systems are not as effective as they lead on to believe. Of course they will advertise it. Making your enemy believe it is more effective than actually being able to do it lol.

[Shadoware]

When will we see the results of this survey or the ED updated Viper's schedule?

[Jester2138]

Let's not involve a jet with unrealistic performance that was solely built of a wikipedia page

 

The fact that you can't read their Chinese sources doesn't mean they don't have them.

 

The LD-10 outperforming the AGM-88C makes perfect sense. It would shock me if it didn't. The AGM-88C is a very old missile that doesn't even have a memory/GPS mode. The LD-10 is not only a newer design electronically but is much faster and has a lower Radar Cross Section, making it significantly harder to shoot down. The proper comparison would be the AGM-88E, which undoubtedly would vastly outperform the LD-10. But we don't have that in DCS.

 

However given some of their weapons performances , Namely SD10 vs Aim120C, makes their modelling questionable.

 

The SD-10 almost exactly matches Nighthawk's CFD work. Unless you think Nighthawk has a pro-China bias, too?

Edited August 3, 2020 by Jester2138

[FoxOne007]

The AGM-88C is a very old missile that doesn't even have a memory/GPS mode.

 

 

It does have a memroy/GPS mode though, POS mode on the F-16C (and called something different on the Hornet). So the only thing the LD-10 brings on the table is speed and RCS. Yet the JF-17 lacks any form of HTS or ability to link up with an RC-135 to share radar threat data.... Just because the JF has a newer missile doesn't make it a better SEAD platform.

[Extranajero]

Let's have a SEAD platform first, my reasoning :-

 

1) Everyone has read Dan Hamptons books

2) SEAD is one of the most interesting and challenging things you can currently do in DCS

3) We don't have a truly dedicated SEAD aircraft yet

[Jester2138]

It does have a memroy/GPS mode though

 

This is incorrect; GPS wasn't introduced until the AGM-88D.

 

Yet the JF-17 lacks any form of HTS

 

Actually it does have a dedicated EW pod analogous to the HTS which has been in DCS since release day 1.

[FoxOne007]

This is incorrect; GPS wasn't introduced until the AGM-88D.

Correct, but it does have INS which allows it to be fired at coords, then the radar homing seeker will take care of the terminal phase of the missile

[gavagai]

When will we see the results of this survey or the ED updated Viper's schedule?

 

+1

 

I would like to see the results.

[Jester2138]

Correct, but it does have INS which allows it to be fired at coords, then the radar homing seeker will take care of the terminal phase of the missile

 

Yes, but I thought we were talking about GPS and continuing to home on a target after the emissions have ceased, which (because it lacked GPS) the AGM-88C was horrifically inaccurate at doing and this prompted the development of the AGM-88D with the GPS receiver.