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DCS MiG-29A


Krippz

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Just now, GGTharos said:

You are right, but your IRST doesn't see flares, or other 'distractions' and it should, do that as well.  The point being that any 'leveling of the battlefield' wishes here are a bit of a fallacy, and also DCS is missing a lot in terms of the physical simulation.   Not just DCS, but you get the idea.

Yes I completely agree and but I also expect DCS to get more realistic in this field as time passes.  And if the Talisman can give a 9.12 pilot a slightly better chance to get into visual range against 4+ generation fighters even if its radar is completely out of action I expect it would/could improve its chances in the online AMRAAM shootouts. Because at least nowadays those jamming F/A-18s online mess up my radar/home-on-jamming tactics completely.     

 

I however expect the biggest question is whether its too legally ambiguous for ED.

 

 

 

(Another thing I have wondered about is whether there were any in-flight refuelling mods ever made available to the basic 9.12. I thought the Belorussians had also made such kits, but it turns out I was wrong since I was recalling the -29BM.  If there were any it could be an excuse for ED to include it as an option.)

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3 minutes ago, SharkWizard said:

Yes I completely agree and but I also expect DCS to get more realistic in this field as time passes.  And if the Talisman can give a 9.12 pilot a slightly better chance to get into visual range against 4+ generation fighters even if its radar is completely out of action I expect it would/could improve its chances in the online AMRAAM shootouts. Because at least nowadays those jamming F/A-18s online mess up my radar/home-on-jamming tactics completely. [/quote]

 

My point is that you already have that chance as if you had talisman.  Chaff are AMRAAM magnets, notching is quite easy to do - all as if you'd had a jammer attached working together with your expendables.   So, the 120 (since that's what we're talking about) would have to become that much better, and talisman should simply reproduce the current situation.

Their optimistic video is ... optimistic.

 

3 minutes ago, SharkWizard said:

I however expect the biggest question is whether its too legally ambiguous for ED.

 

No, this is all about simulation depth IMHO.

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Just now, GGTharos said:

 

My point is that you already have that chance as if you had talisman.  Chaff are AMRAAM magnets, notching is quite easy to do - all as if you'd had a jammer attached working together with your expendables.   So, the 120 (since that's what we're talking about) would have to become that much better, and talisman should simply reproduce the current situation.

 

Interesting. Then the situation is going to get worse for the FC3 9.12 pilot because I fully expect ED to fix those problems eventually.

Still just pressing the ecm button(s) is simpler than notching using the SPO-15. So just maybe it may improve overall SA for the 9.12 pilot?

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32 minutes ago, SharkWizard said:

Talisman can give a 9.12 pilot a slightly better chance to get into visual range against 4+ generation fighters

 

First i don't need any "artificially" better chance against 2000s fighters, because i doubt i'll ever fight 2000s fighters in my 1980s MiG-29, maybe a few times with mates, for fun.

Just like i do with MiG-15 vs Bf-109.

 

Except MiG-15 vs Bf-109 is only 5 years gap.

MiG-29A vs F-16C block 50 CCIP is more than 20 years gap...

 

Second: So called "Talisman" is just one of dozens generic ECM pods used all around the world with every single parameter totally classified. This one is from 2010s so even 10 years more modern than our Viper and Hornet. And used by what? One state?

I expect it to be kind of legal only because ED absolutely wouldn't recive ANY data and it would be 100% made up fiction. I doubt ED would like to go for something like that.


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16 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

My point is that you already have that chance as if you had talisman.  Chaff are AMRAAM magnets, notching is quite easy to do - all as if you'd had a jammer attached working together with your expendables.   So, the 120 (since that's what we're talking about) would have to become that much better, and talisman should simply reproduce the current situation.

No, Talisman would add a lot more

 

17 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

Their optimistic video is ... optimistic.

No, their video is....realistic

 

 

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39 minutes ago, SharkWizard said:

Interesting. Then the situation is going to get worse for the FC3 9.12 pilot because I fully expect ED to fix those problems eventually.

Still just pressing the ecm button(s) is simpler than notching using the SPO-15. So just maybe it may improve overall SA for the 9.12 pilot?

 

It's just my un-nuanced opinion.  As you've pointed out here, there are nuances.   For example, talisman may work differently even if the effect is similar (less Pk).   So yes, conceptually with Talisman you don't need to maneuver at all (because it would attempt to employ track-breaking) , but this would be a bad expectation.   Lower Pk, not zero ... unless there's some serious technological gap between the two systems.


Edited by GGTharos

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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I'm telling that without any sarcasm or anything, but if someone want to have some 2010s totally classified ECM pod, name it Talisman or anything else - let's make a mod. 

It will be exactly as realistic as if ED would make it, namely 0% data and 100% fiction.

 

Now imagine situation: two guys fight, both use some totally made up ECM 2010s pods and one of them wins because someone - without ANY real data - put value 0,6 in one and 0,7 in second one, just like that, because why not. 

And this unrealistic, totally arbitrary value, put randomly, without ANY data to support it, is deciding which guy is going to be winning and which one is going to be losing. Fascinating...

JDAM blues.


Edited by bies
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One of the problems that I have with "modern" era in DCS is that it doesnt feel very authentic in current implementation (especially with very simplified EW). Its almost like fighting in the 80s, just without chaffs and flares. Problem is that there is lots of stuff that is classified and of course cant be showed in public game.


Edited by SovietAce
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16 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

The EW problem is one of simulation depth, not one of classification.

When it comes to Cold War stuff - i agree, some 1980s systems are still classified but some can be obtained. And ED is working on some new API.

 

When it comes to 2000s and more modern... hell no, literally everything related to ECM, ECCM, radio links used today - is a lot more strictly classified than all the rest of the plane. And any SME is not going to reveal anything sensitive.

 

I'm absolutely sure even if ED would, by some accident, came into possession of some documents on sensitive system without a "declassified" stamp, they would not dare to use it in the public simulator and would hide it in the deepest drawer.

And Matt Wagner himself stated in an interview that, as a former CIA analyst, he is a fuse that ensures that the classified stuff is never disclosed in DCS.


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18 hours ago, Max1mus said:

Same thing with modern BVR combat. When you move away from AMRAAM vs AMRAAM boredom you get a very diverse and asymmetric fight. That is, you would, if ED was smart enough to add the necessairy modern OPFOR platforms to AI or as low fidelity planes.

 

Or just go Cold War and enjoy some very exciting, well-balanced match-ups and scenarios, where it's a little bit more the pilot that matters than the computers, without (most of) the constraints ED feels limited by. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, bies said:

When it comes to 2000s and more modern... hell no, literally everything related to ECM, ECCM, radio links used today - is a lot more strictly classified than all the rest of the plane. And any SME is not going to reveal anything sensitive.

 

Yeah, stuff was classified back then, too, but the physics remain the same and very unclassified, as well as method descriptions and explanations (even unclass simulations thereof).   There may be some extra things that are being done that we don't know about it, but ECM is either about repeating or repeating with modification or just blinding the sensor. 

 

Truly the only classified things may be:  emission power, exact methods used, frequencies, and their effect on any given opposing piece of equipment.   So in that respect, I agree that we cannot have 'true' realism, much like we don't have it in radars or missiles.   But we can have a bunch of it.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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45 minutes ago, Pilot Ike said:

Or just go Cold War and enjoy some very exciting, well-balanced match-ups and scenarios, where it's a little bit more the pilot that matters than the computers, without (most of) the constraints ED feels limited by. 

Exactly, more balanced, more exciting and close combat instead of standoff "press the pickle"

 

 

That's rare MiG-29 in Iranian air force. Iran obtained few MiG-29 when they fled from Iraq during Desert Storm. They were 9.12B variant - export for non-WARPAC countries.

They lacked some radar modes, IFF and probably R-73 missiles with helmet. Notwithstanding they were still significant reinforcement for Iraq Air Force.

 

The most interesting fact is - this planes took part in last period of Iraq - Iran war, some sources claim they scrimish in the air with Iranian F-14As. At this point F-14As were out of AIM-54 Phoenix missiles and MiG-29 didn't have R-73, both loses their most dangerous weapon would be closely matched.

 

We could recreate nearly whole Iraq-Iran all out war 1980-1988 with Iraq

  • MiG-21bis,
  • Mirage F.1E,
  • MiG-23MLA (Razbam stated they will make both Soviet and Iraq variant),
  • MiG-29A,
  • Mi-24

and for Iran

  • F-5E
  • F-14A (Heatblur is also making Iranian variant),
  • Huey.

 

 

It looks great in Iranian camo. Lighweight and slim with clean aerodynamic line.

One of the most beaufiful fighters ever made.

 

IRIAF_MiG-29 9.12B.jpg

 

 

 

 

In comparition "modern" SMT is overweight (exactly like modern F-16) with ~2.5 tons ballast EMPTY weight of structural reinforcements, humpback fuel tank and more electronics it looks like disproportionate fatass dog close to retirement.

 

MiG-29-SMT.jpg


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10 hours ago, Zweistein000 said:

Fuel managwment in MiG is possibly the most importan skill to have. Especally for MiG-29. Knowing how to manage fuel even in a dogfigt can mean the difference between 1h endurance or falling ourlt of the sky in 15 min. 

Yep my typical flight in the 29 is take off with afterburner then throttle back to full mil power till I hit 500km/h then start a climb at 40m/s roughly and take my time to 9km alt and then throttle back to 80-85% and cruise forever.

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So how will this MiG-29 fare against the more modern NATO jets? I think a lot of players are going about this the wrong way. Fighter vs Fighter, there is no contest and it is silly to think that a bolted on ECM pod or R-77 will change that. So what are the solution for having fun in a modern scenario?

You keep the jet as realistic as you can and balance the mission instead. Give the older Redfor fighters tactical advantage. Better SAM coverage! Better GCI! more bases etc.
There are ways to get interesting missions without trying to min-maxing every jet. 

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6 minutes ago, Schmidtfire said:

There are ways to get interesting missions without trying to min-maxing every jet. 

 

  Heh, yeah, you're assuming the DCS community is more mature than every other gaming community... it really isn't =D Especially the loud, vocal minority, think almost exclusively in 1v1 ''come at me, brah'' terms @@ It takes too much effort to do that other stuff you're talking about 😛 And it might affect their K/D, the only really important stat!


Edited by zhukov032186
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Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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7 hours ago, SharkWizard said:

I wonder if ED could have the Belarussian Talisman ECM (available as an bolt-on upgrade to the 9.12) included as a possible loadout with the F-F 29. 

As always with ECM, the capabilities of the Talisman would need to be guessed by ED, but it might slightly even out the playing field for those interested in taking the 9.12 into those online AMRAAM festivals.  Or maybe it would violate some laws to include it? 

 

 

 

 

 

We would violet the rule that AIM-120 should be like laser beam not effected by Jammers or ground clutter.


Edited by Teknetinium
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                        51st PVO Discord SATAC YouTube
 

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20 minutes ago, Teknetinium said:

Why would a MIG-29 be possible to make but not Su-27S model witch would be able to fight with modern fighters thx to its DL, stronger EOS, Stronger radar and Jammers.  

 

First MiG-29A was exported to many countries around the world, it was officially extensively tested by NATO countries including USA.

Second Su-27 was primarily PVO fighter and everything connect with PVO is more classified, like 1980s first MiG-31. There was no MiG-29 in PVO.

Third some countries, including Russia, still use many basic Su-27S with only minor upgrades.

 

Contrary to modern Russian planes - ED didn't say they will never make first Su-27S.

 

But there is no point to digress to far from the topic and I can bet many guys would give you "their opinion" why ED didn't make Su-27S from 1080s so far, including even some conspiracy theories...


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53 minutes ago, Teknetinium said:

 

We would violet the rule that AIM-120 should be like laser beam not effected by Jammers or ground clutter.

 

 

You mean "violate".

 

The fact you spout this nonsense shows you aren't interested in truth, discourse or any form of cogent, logical or reasoned application of intelligence to solving an issue. You're here to simply elicit a reaction. Trolling of this nature indicates you've run out of any data to support your argument. So, ultimately, all this posturing, mud-slinging and acerbic jibe making ends up being little more than a considerably undignified effort on your part to win an argument whose aim is based solely on assuaging your over-sensitive ego; "I get shot down a lot and I don't like it."

 

Awww. Poor little Teknetium. We'll make all the other kids play nice with you, we promise.

 

Furthermore it also excellently highlights the fact that you haven't been trying to operate with AMRAAMS in the recent patches - which in and of itself, is not that relevant, except surely if you're going to attempt to resolve an issue of this nature, the scientific method would be to experience the issue from both sides to truly understand the limitations or advantages each has before making an analysis and coming to a considered, rational opinion.

 

So all told, welcome to my ignore list. Your brand of peurile worthless input is no longer a factor in my life. 

 


Edited by DD_Fenrir
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1 minute ago, Bravelink03 said:

Lets get back on topic, and talk about the 9.12 . I'm not here to see people complain about AMRAAMS being op , or insert anything people get into a tisy about. I'm here to share pictures and get the Fulcrum the love it deserves as a F-F module.

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